Where IP law is actually a good thing

[scineram]

@Stranger

Is a “trespassers will be shot” sign a contract?

Did you put such a sign next to any random road and shot everyone who passed?

[tsmereka]

So if I start a cover band and we play Deep Purple’s “Woman from Tokyo” at a club or something somewhere, or I just sing it aloud while im walking down the street one day, have I committed some sort of crime? You can’t even claim that Purple is losing revenue since they never would have played at that particular venue.

Have Iron Maiden committed a crime because they were influenced by Purple and because they use similar musical techniques?

When Mises.org puts up Adam Smith’s works and lets us read them for free without asking him or his descendants have they caused him or his descendants any loss?

[Stranger]

@E. R. Olovetto

Did I say that? Please stop being so disingenuous. The hypo is too vague. I didn’t say that the lack of a sign meant trespass was allowable. I said that mere trespass can not be justifiably punished by murder. Trespass + making a threat may be.

And you completely missed the point. If it doesn’t take a contract to be guilty of trespass, then the “I don’t have a contract with the copyright holder hence I get to copy” argument is laughable.

[Stranger]

@Taras Smereka

So if I start a cover band and we play Deep Purple’s “Woman from Tokyo” at a club or something somewhere, or I just sing it aloud while im walking down the street one day, have I committed some sort of crime? You can’t even claim that Purple is losing revenue since they never would have played at that particular venue.

For the ten millionth time, what is illegal is a media to media copy. You can sing all you want.

@Taras Smereka

When Mises.org puts up Adam Smith’s works and lets us read them for free without asking him or his descendants have they caused him or his descendants any loss?

There are no works by Adam Smith on Mises.org.

[Stranger]

@Aster_Lacnala

IP also covers patents, don’t forget.

Patents are a much older mechanism that dates back to mercantilism, and originally applied to industries like salt production. They are not the heart of IP.

@Aster_Lacnala

BTW, Stranger, have you noticed how many of your arguments are circular? Information is property, therefore stealing it is wrong. How can we call it stealing? Well, because information is property!

That’s not circular at all.

[twistedbydsign99]

@Stranger

And you completely missed the point. If it doesn’t take a contract to be guilty of trespass, then the “I don’t have a contract with the copyright holder hence I get to copy” argument is laughable.

Its an implicit contract like the fact that I won’t invite you on a plane ride and then evict you while in the air. I’m not sure you can imply there is an implicit contract with IP.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Maxliberty

@JackCuyler

@E. R. Olovetto

@JackCuyler

Trespassing is a crime unto itself, and therefore the hackee may seek restitution from the hacker.

(I wasn’t around for a while sorry.)

I still don’t see how hacking is trespassing unless some physical property is altered. What other action we could call “trespassing” occurs when a person is not physically anywhere near another’s property?

There is absolutely no way to copy files from my computer without altering something. The CPU usage will increase, bits will be moved on the harddrive, log files will be generated, etc. etc.

I can see you in court demanding the hackers imprisonment for a momentary increased CPU usage…my god the horror of it all. What is the appropriate restitution for increased CPU usage…maybe paying the electric bill for a month …that sounds more than sufficient. Meanwhile the copied data bankrupts the company.

Nice appeal to emotion.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Maxliberty

@liberty student

You’re missing the fact that the greater information is shared, the more efficient an economy becomes. By your argument, more people learning to read and write devalues reading and writing. You’re basically refuting the possibility for progress by making a claim that every new work is original and not a derivation (if that is what you are saying), and you’re also making a grave error by insisting that more value is created by having less aggregate knowledge.

I believe this is the market as zero sum game stuff which I thought most Austrians understood to be bunk.

So we should be forced to share because you think it is more efficient? Hardly a pro liberty approach. Your theory fails to address two major points, one, what happens to information copied by trespass or contract violation and two, why does the current unregulated market for information treat information like property which is contrary to your prediction regarding unregulated markets for information? Until you can answer those two questions you have no logical ground to stand on.

Unregulated market for information? Then what are IP laws, the FCC, the FTC, the FCC, etc?

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Stranger

@Taras Smereka

So if I start a cover band and we play Deep Purple’s “Woman from Tokyo” at a club or something somewhere, or I just sing it aloud while im walking down the street one day, have I committed some sort of crime? You can’t even claim that Purple is losing revenue since they never would have played at that particular venue.

For the ten millionth time, what is illegal is a media to media copy. You can sing all you want.

So vocal cords aren’t media?

[Maxliberty]

@Daniel Muffinburg

@Maxliberty

@liberty student

You’re missing the fact that the greater information is shared, the more efficient an economy becomes. By your argument, more people learning to read and write devalues reading and writing. You’re basically refuting the possibility for progress by making a claim that every new work is original and not a derivation (if that is what you are saying), and you’re also making a grave error by insisting that more value is created by having less aggregate knowledge.

I believe this is the market as zero sum game stuff which I thought most Austrians understood to be bunk.

So we should be forced to share because you think it is more efficient? Hardly a pro liberty approach. Your theory fails to address two major points, one, what happens to information copied by trespass or contract violation and two, why does the current unregulated market for information treat information like property which is contrary to your prediction regarding unregulated markets for information? Until you can answer those two questions you have no logical ground to stand on.

Unregulated market for information? Then what are IP laws, the FCC, the FTC, the FCC, etc?

Common problem with Austrian cultists…the world is larger than America. Also, even in America there are lots of unregulated buying and selling of information. You are thinking only of movies and songs but information is much larger and more pervasive than just those narrow categories.

[Maxliberty]

@Daniel Muffinburg

@Maxliberty

@JackCuyler

@E. R. Olovetto

@JackCuyler

Trespassing is a crime unto itself, and therefore the hackee may seek restitution from the hacker.

(I wasn’t around for a while sorry.)

I still don’t see how hacking is trespassing unless some physical property is altered. What other action we could call “trespassing” occurs when a person is not physically anywhere near another’s property?

There is absolutely no way to copy files from my computer without altering something. The CPU usage will increase, bits will be moved on the harddrive, log files will be generated, etc. etc.

I can see you in court demanding the hackers imprisonment for a momentary increased CPU usage…my god the horror of it all. What is the appropriate restitution for increased CPU usage…maybe paying the electric bill for a month …that sounds more than sufficient. Meanwhile the copied data bankrupts the company.

Nice appeal to emotion.

No appeal to emotion. A fact, that unauthorized copying of data can have real economic impact on firms and individuals…contrary to your assertion that hacking is damage free.

[Giant_Joe]

@Maxliberty

So we should be forced to share because you think it is more efficient?

It has been pointed out to you many times before that this is not true and that it’s a strawman. Why do you concede on a point one week, and then the next week forget that you did?

[DanielMuffinburg]

SEC - Insider information.
FDA - Nutrition information.

Care to try again?

[tsmereka]

Heh, I guess i must have read it off google books or something then. Does it matter?

Can you explain how singing it is not a media? Its clear that that is a circumstance of me and other people benefiting from the idea without compensating the originator of it.

So if I decide to make a warcraft 4 or start a private warcraft 3 server (since the company that owns the copyright is being a douche and not supporting the series). is that wrong

[Stranger]

@Daniel Muffinburg

@Stranger

@Taras Smereka

So if I start a cover band and we play Deep Purple’s “Woman from Tokyo” at a club or something somewhere, or I just sing it aloud while im walking down the street one day, have I committed some sort of crime? You can’t even claim that Purple is losing revenue since they never would have played at that particular venue.

For the ten millionth time, what is illegal is a media to media copy. You can sing all you want.

So vocal cords aren’t media?

No, consult a physicist.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Maxliberty

@Daniel Muffinburg

@Maxliberty

@JackCuyler

@E. R. Olovetto

@JackCuyler

Trespassing is a crime unto itself, and therefore the hackee may seek restitution from the hacker.

(I wasn’t around for a while sorry.)

I still don’t see how hacking is trespassing unless some physical property is altered. What other action we could call “trespassing” occurs when a person is not physically anywhere near another’s property?

There is absolutely no way to copy files from my computer without altering something. The CPU usage will increase, bits will be moved on the harddrive, log files will be generated, etc. etc.

I can see you in court demanding the hackers imprisonment for a momentary increased CPU usage…my god the horror of it all. What is the appropriate restitution for increased CPU usage…maybe paying the electric bill for a month …that sounds more than sufficient. Meanwhile the copied data bankrupts the company.

Nice appeal to emotion.

No appeal to emotion. A fact, that unauthorized copying of data can have real economic impact on firms and individuals…contrary to your assertion that hacking is damage free.

I challenge you to prove that I ever made that claim.

[twistedbydsign99]

@Maxliberty

No appeal to emotion. A fact, that unauthorized copying of data can have real economic impact on firms and individuals…contrary to your assertion that hacking is damage free.

Liability, not damage. But was he even saying that? I think it would be good to find a difference between a pin number to a bank account versus a released movie.

[Stranger]

@Daniel Muffinburg

I challenge you to prove that I ever made that claim.

Pistols at dawn, sir!

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Stranger

@Daniel Muffinburg

@Stranger

@Taras Smereka

So if I start a cover band and we play Deep Purple’s “Woman from Tokyo” at a club or something somewhere, or I just sing it aloud while im walking down the street one day, have I committed some sort of crime? You can’t even claim that Purple is losing revenue since they never would have played at that particular venue.

For the ten millionth time, what is illegal is a media to media copy. You can sing all you want.

So vocal cords aren’t media?

No, consult a physicist.

Of course, because as LS pointed out earlier, you can’t re-articulate what the physicist says. Nice appeal to authority, btw.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@Stranger

@Daniel Muffinburg

I challenge you to prove that I ever made that claim.

Pistols at dawn, sir!

What ever happened to swords?