In a free society you’d get to choose what law set you want to live under. How exactly would that be anything like ‘enforced’ laws and therefore akin to government, Hashem?
You’re confused; I’m using the common definition.
No. Again you’re either wrong or confused. In either case: what unusual definition of law are you invoking whereby it isn’t enforced?
And now 5 posts later maybe you’ll answer my question: What unusual definition of ruler are you invoking whereby an enforcer isn’t a ruler?
Translation: in a so-called “free” (read: new statist) society, you get to choose your rulers.
I believe that Hashem is correct here, although I have never understood the disdain which he seems to have towards anarcho-capitalism. Whenever one person uses force against another person to restrict their action you have someone who is exercising their ability to rule (to control or dominate) another person. It is the lowest level of law which one can sink down to such that it’s barely even worth calling the law enforcer a “ruler” but he is still a ruler. It is even a poly-centric leadership or dominion, but it is still a system where there are rulers and there are rules. It is important to note that unless we can change human nature itself there is no alternative to this.
You’re allowed to choose what laws you get to live under up to a point but I can’t choose a law system where I get to jack everyone else’s stuff and they’re not allowed to do anything. It might maximize freedom but it doesn’t give each individual perfect freedom; each individual must respect others and in this way they are ruled. This isn’t a bad thing. The alternative is… ANARCHYYY!!! D:
Considering the definition you linked to, I might as well just repost my original comment to you:
Your confusion here is that you think private law has “morals enforcers”. This is not the case. It’s a red herring. Even the police do not have the same role as they do in statist law. There is a reason why libertarians advocate Private Defense Agencies instead of Law Enforcement Agencies.
Hashem’s confusion here is that private law is not about enforcing one view over another. As I posted originally here, Hashem is correct insofar as there are many libertarians here who advocate a variation of common law where the judge makes a ruling. But there are people here, such as Clayton, who advocate that the role of judge be that of mediator. The judge is meant to help resolve the dispute between the parties. If the parties do not resolve the dispute nonviolently, that is that they do not use the process of law, then it is outside the scope of private law. Whoever is the victor does rule over the other, but that is not within the scope of private law. It’s not even law.
But that defies the idea that one can violently defend one’s own property. While I suppose they could be reduced, private law and private mediation would appear to be two different things because while one is overarching the other is personal.
You can violently defend your property. If A steals X from B, then they have a dispute. They can either resolve the dispute violently or nonviolently. The whole point of using law as a mechanism for resolving disputes is to avoid further violence. This is true for any system of law. In the current statutory system of law, the state steps in and threatens A with violence. The state and A can either resolve the dispute without further violence and go to a court of (statutory) law, or they can resolve it with violence and shoot it out. In today’s statutory system, A can reject the nonviolently achieved resolution with the state at anytime, but then he will face the full wrath of the state. Most defendants, guilty or not, choose to accept the resolution instead of going to war with the state.
In private law, A and B go to a court of (private law), which would be a mediator. The whole point of going to a court of law is to resolve the dispute without further violence. At any time, either party can reject this and resort to violent conflict. But that is not using law to resolve the dispute.
Neodoxy,
I don’t know if you have read What Law Is by Clayton, but it should clear things up.
Ok, so the unusual definition of law you’re invoking is about a system of rules that aren’t enforced. Why didn’t you just say that? I would like to see that and as I’ve said in other threads I expect humanity to achieve something like that some day. Of course this has nothing to do with what is almost universally meant by law (which implies enforcement), and which is what most people who advocate so-called anarchism are talking about and consequently why they’re advocating statism under a new name.
I can see that you did not read the link I provided. The definition you link to is only a relatively recent definition of law, where law is associated with the state. Not only is it an inadequate explanation of what law actually is, it leads to this absurd bias where law can only be statist. Nevermind systems of law like the Somali Xeer, your definition also excludes even talking about the Laws of Chess, which are more than just the rules of the game itself. Your definition also does not allow for guild laws.
Whoever wants to be apart of a guild must abide by the laws of the guild. Whoever wants to compete through the World Chess Federation must abide by the laws of FIDE. These are not aggressive laws. And these are not considered laws by the inadequate definition you linked to. Clayton quotes and provides a far more adequate definition of law, one that is not linked to statism.
As I said, as long as you are stuck in your statist mindset, then you will forever identify law with rulers.
First of all, that is not my definition of law. Sometimes I can’t tell if you are just being a dick or dishonest. Seriously, you always introduce things like “you are confused” and “you are being dishonest”. But why don’t you try actually quoting my definitions instead of twisting them into something they are not.
Second of all, try reading the link I provided above. Clayton explains some of the history of law and quotes various sources, one of which is the state of Oregon explaining the history and purpose of law.
The definition that Clayton eventually provides is this:
You see, the benefit of this definition is that it encompasses all of the various systems of law, such as statutory law, common law, customary law, religious law, guild law, etc. Instead, you would have us limited to the modern use of law as an equivalent to statutory law. It’s like when the communists define capitalism as requiring the state to exist. It’s a biased definition of capitalism that allows for them to claim that anarcho-capitalists are not anarchists. Not only is it a biased definition, but it also neglects the important feature of capitalism, private ownership of capital. You can have state capitalism and you can have anarcho-capitalism. You can have statutory law, and you can have common law, customary law, etc.
But you beg the question when you define law as statist per se. Of course law is statist if you define it as statist.
I don’t mean to be a dick, in fact I’m trying to keep you on track in as friendly a manner as possible so I apologize if you’re getting the wrong vibe. Naturally, I apologize if you’re talking about somethingn relevant and I’m failing to understand how. Obviously though, you can do your part to answer my questions directly—that is, by referencing words I use and responding to them.
So if I say “so-called” anarchists are pushing a system of violent morals enforcement. What are violent morals-enforcers if not rulers?", then we could have avoided all of this if you’d have responded, “While I concede that violent morals-enforcers are rulers, I instead advocate a type of anarchism dependent on laws that aren’t enforced which therefore doesn’t require rulers (nevermind how utopian it is).”
Your attitude sounds a bit utopian to me. The point is people can indeed force you to do something, once it is proven in court that you’re a savage lunatic. I don’t care if you call that statist or whatever.
And the best kinds of courts are those where there profits are not guaranteed. If you disagree you have the right to live in your system, but statistically it seems inferior.
You’re confused, I’m not advocating anything here. I don’t care anymore if someone feels offended by me saying that, You are confused if you think I’m advocating something. What I’m doing is discussing what others advocate.
Like Neodoxy said, controlling others makes you a ruler, whether you accept that title or not. That has nothing to do with whether I do or don’t support a system with rulers.
Let’s say someone who I’ve never seen before tries to kill me, and I end up killing him in self-defense. By your reasoning, I was a ruler over him. Well, so be it - I’d be just fine with that kind of “rulership”.
Your posts seem hypocritical either way, I wasn’t really offended by anything just making an observation.
I unlike others don’t care what you want to call it. Call it Anarcho-hamburgerism if you desire.
No, there’s no ruler. At all. How does choosing rules chose a ruler? A ruler makes rules over you. Thus, if you are choosing rules, YOU are your own ruler. That’s what a free society should be, individual rule over the individual, ala the word ‘autarchy’.
Then how is it that you advocate a system different than what we have now? You are free to accept private arbitration and aggressors (in this case the state) just take what they want? In my mind law needs to be a combination of what you’re talking about and justifying violence in order to protect property.
I disagree. Read on for my solution to this most important of problems.
Let’s imagine in the future that everyone gets to choose their own rules for themselves, and that everyone knows this, and so when person A goes to do business with person B, B naturally requests a mutual sharing of their personal rules (this is facilitated via online mechanism).
A shares and reads B and vice-versa, and at this point, B informs A that unless A drops his “right to steal” rule at least insofar as all contact and contract he has with B, B will refuse to do any business with him at all.
A has the choice to drop his “right to steal” law entirely or not at that point, or to give up that right in all his dealings with B. If he does not, then he can be justly prosecuted under the rules he chose for himself. All without any ‘ruler’ ever having shown his head.
This would be the penultimate of evolved law: each person choosing their ruleset to live by and inviting others to hold them to that standard.
So you see, yes, you would be able to choose for yourself a law that says that you can steal at will. But I picture a society where people allow you on their property only if they agree in the main with the law set you’ve chosen for yourself. They’d choose all their associations the same way.
So, someone choosing to let himself steal without consequences immediately finds himself marginalized in society. He can’t get a job, can’t find housing, can’t even visit the nearby shopping mall–they stop him at the door, etc.
All that without anyone forcing him to accept a law against stealing. He experinces consequences relating to his personal acceptance of that law, and must choose how important it is to him.
Ultimately, finding himself unable to contract with anyone who will allow him to steal at will from them, he drops the rule and is finally able to buy food and lodging.
But imagine if someone did allow him to contract under that stealing provision? Would he still be prosecutable if he stole? Wouldn’t that constitute person A and B in that scenario putting each others’ property titles up for grabs? I suppose so.
Yes, that would make you a ruler—but because that’s what ruler means, not because of my reasoning. Again, I’m not arguing for or against it (at least not here in this thread, yet), just pointing out what amounts to an inconsistency among self-proclaimed anarchists who advocate a system of enforced law.
I want to address the rest of your posts but I have to wait until I get home.
Excellent conclusion, Auto. I fully agree 100%.