Why do Objectivists Attack Austrians?

I know better than to get involved in an argument with a Randroid, but…

Question: can there be more than one Objectivist government, or must it just be a single, united, world-spanning entity?

(To be clear, I mean: let’s say Australia unanimously becomes Objectivist tomorrow…first, does it have to enforce its Objectivist law over the rest of the world, or can it restrict itself to today’s border? Second: assuming the latter, if, six months later, New Zealand becomes Objectivist as well, do the Australian politicians rule NZ (or the NZ politicians rule Australia?), must they form a single body with both sets of politicians, or can they remain independent countries each with its own Objectivist government?)

So you basically ignored what I wrote, and just repeated yourself.

You didn’t address the difference between an economic and an ethical value.

You are continuing the anarchy red herring.

You haven’t verified that you are or are not familiar with praxeology.

You haven’t checked your premises.

No, I did address the difference in the second through fourth paragraphs. Do you not get the difference between normative propositions (ethics) and descriptive propositions (economics)?

I didn’t ignore what you said, I was responding to more than just your post, but Ryan’s request for elaboration.

The anarchy issue isn’t a red herring, it’s the equivocation of economics with ethics that is wrong-headed.

I am not debating anyone about praxeology, I am just trying to clarify that the issue is not about economic theory here, but rather politics and ethics. Don’t confuse them.

Well, literally speaking, law is not objective wherever it is applied. That is the same with the concept value, and ethics. Value, in the sense of what you act to gain or keep, can be called subjective because people pursue lots of values, varying from cars, books, computers, drugs, etc. From what I know about Austrian economics, that’s as far as value is really considered, and entirely proper. For you as an individual, what values should you pursue, though? Should you decide based on how you feel only? Based on a deity? Based on what society says? An Objectivist would say you should decide based on evaluation of reality through your own mind. By use of reason, you can figure out that life should be your standard of value, then decide what values are most beneficial to your life. So, essentially, value is subjective (determined by the subject), and the subject should determine values objectively, with facts. Law can be evaluated in a similar way. Basically, law is a matter of asserting authority over others. How should that authority be used though? The idea I’m pointing out is that a more broad definition of a concept must first be accepted as valid before moving onto the more specific definition.

If you think ANY objective evaluation of reality is impossible, that your mind is filled with inherent bias, that certainty is impossible, that’s another issue. I don’t think that is the case here, though.

Actually, you’re the one confusing them. Politics, normative ethics and libertarianism are not Austrianism. You’re avoiding the issues Objectivists have with Mises and specifically praxeology, rather than debating them straight up.

If you’re not going to discuss praxeology, then you’re not discussing the topic at hand at all. You’re missing the point. The premise that ethics can even be objective is the bedrock upon which Objectivism lies, and Mises challenges that. This superficial twaddle about defense agencies, politics and constitutions are red herrings. They assume Mises is wrong and Rand was right.

Objectivists reject praxeology because Mises’ theory of Human Action wasn’t confined only to so-called “economic activities” but to the cognitive processes every person undergoes when making any decision relating to human action, social or not.

How should laws be used, thought of etc?

Well in a Walter Block sense, laws have to be in accordance to the NAP and defending property rights…

Politics, normative ethics and libertarianism are not Austrianism.

But this has been exactly my point this entire time, and anyone can read my posts to see this. You seem to want to take the opposite view, but are unable to articulate why.

In any event, consider this information directed at those others who do not commit the error of mistaking their vehemence against a position for actual argumentative reasoning against a position:

Praxeology does not disprove a rational ethics because praxeology is not concerned with making any normative claims whatsoever, but simply identifying the principles that govern human action (principles which an objective metaethics itself is uses to derive the basis for normative claims.)

Praxeology itself does not evaluate any actions. A rational ethics, however, is concerned with judging what kind of actions an entity is capable of, and prescribing what kind of purposeful behavior it ought to engage in, if it is to preserve its life and satisfy its needs for well-being

Behavior such as “we ought to have anarchy instead of government” falls under this purvue, so the attempt to justify anarchy on the basis of “there are no objective values, therefore we ought to have anarchy” is an exercise in self-refutation.

What opposite view? This thread is entitled why do Objectivists attack Austrians, not why do Objectivists attack Libertarians.

Oh so small…

If values, including ethical values are subjective, than there cannot be a “rational ethics”. Trying to claim they exist in different domains remains an unsubstantiated assertion on your part.

Is and ought…

Again, you’re mixing anarchism and Austrianism. It’s a red herring.

Praxeology doesn’t make any claims about what is good or bad because good and bad aren’t scientific concepts. And the attempt of Objectivism to make ethics scientific is based on the false premise that such a thing is even possible.

Yes, that is the title of this thread. As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, the OP has failed to distinguish between the Austrian school of economics and libertarian politics and ethics. Objectivists do not attack Austrian economics as such (as this can be seen in the numerous Austrians that do not hold Mises’ view that there can be no rational ethics or objective values, notably the founder of the Austrian school himself, and the greatest propounder of Mises, Murray Rothbard.) The OP asked “why are we attacked” by Objectivists, confusing “us Austrians” as a genus with “libertarians and anarchists” as a differentia. It is the differentia of “libertarianism,” not the genus “Austrian economics” that Objectivists object to.

If values, including ethical values are subjective, than there cannot be a “rational ethics”.

See Eioul’s post for clarification. Values are subjective in the sense that they depend on a valuer (a “of value to whom”) but values are objective in the sense of what they are used for (a “of value for what”). The “for what” is what the science of ethics deals with. I think you are making the mistake of equating “objective” with “intrinsic.” Objective values are not intrinsic, don’t confuse them. A rational ethics does not posit that there are given obligations or “good and evil” inherent in things apart from any human consciousness. That would be quite literally ir-rational. A rational ethics holds that the good is neither an attribute of “things in themselves” nor of man’s emotional states, but an evaluation of the facts of reality by man’s consciousness according to a rational standard of value.

The objectivity of values originate in a relationship between a man and his survival requirements, that is, they stem from the fact that certain types of action promote human life and are beneficial to human well-being, and certain types of action hinder human life and are detrimental to human well-being. These facts are independent of a particular individual’s tastes or desires or preferences. Praxeology deals with, and indeed correctly states that an observer cannot tell a man what his preferences are better than his own actions, but there is nothing in praxeology that rules out an evaluation of his preferences according to any standard (including an objective standard, such as the biological and psychological requirements for an organism’s survival and flourishing life, or “man’s life qua man” as Aristotle phrased it). It is just the case that praxeology itself cannot fashion such a critique, except to inform a given theory of ethics as to what kind of principles govern human action. Man’s need for a specific code of those principles to promote his life and happiness constitutes his need of morality, i.e. a specific code of values and goals based on the principles of action that will accomplish those ends. Thus, as the fundamental source of moral “oughts” rests in the nature of man, including goal-directed nature of human action, the objective identity of the facts of reality, and the requirements and needs for man’s life and happiness, a scientific ethics is just as possible and necessary (and indeed is implied by) a scientific praxeology. (Indeed praxeology informs us that we cannot escape our need for morality, because we cannot escape from purposeful behavior.)

And by the way, claiming “they exist in separate domains” is not an unsubstantiated claim, that is precisely the claim Ludwig von Mises puts forth in the first chapter of Human Action on the fundamentals of praxeology, and you yourself presumably agree with this, or this is what I can only infer from with your line “is and ought” in the very next bar of your response.

Before I try to respond to the rest, let me try to clear up a few things with some vague statements.

Probably not, because the standard Misesian position is that there’s absolutely no difference between them.

Just to be clear, the typical Misesian stance is that there’s no equivocation possible, because they’re the same thing.

Again just to be precise, the established Misesian opinion is that politics and ethics are born solely out of economic theory.

But, based on what I’ve said so far, it’s absolutely inescapable to get into praxeology!

Okay, let’s see why.

Really I’m not sure what a normative claim is, so I’ll move on.

One of which is that there’s no standard by which to judge somebody’s action except based on their or somebody else’s action.

Actually it’s more like this: “Ultimately we value X, and anarchy would most lead to X, therefore we should have anarchy.”

I agree that the example given does not demonstrate anything about objective values, as you could choose to value anarchy because it “feels right”, or for any variety of reasons. Not all values are objective is the proper way to say it. Objective values are not the ONLY kind of values.

As for what a normative claim is, “we should have anarchy” is a normative claim. Use of the word “should” in a claim is a normative claim. As far as I know, Austrian economics does not tell you if you should have capitalism, or that you should have anarchy. What you should do is a matter of ethics. Economics itself cannot tell you what sort of social system to use.

IF I value X, and objectively speaking anarchy leads to X, then I should strive for anarchy. What is X and why should I care about it though? Why not value an egalitarian world instead? You’re bound to say “because a good life would be impossible in such a world” (I would imagine a claim about egalitarianism being bad would be well accepted around here), which is actually a fact, something true regardless of what you feel. Really, the point is if you want to figure out what you should do, you need to at use objective facts to reach your conclusions. If you don’t want to waste your time towards fruitless goals, you NEED to check if the values you pick are themselves have some sort of standard based on facts. An objective value is just some value that you determine based on facts and your relation to the facts.

Economics CAN’T provide the standard to base your values on, the most it can do in that regard is inform you about which concepts lead to which conclusions. Economics can tell you socialism is destructive, but not that you should avoid destruction.

Thank you. There cannot be a [sic] rational ethics, because ethical values are still values, and praxeology is pretty explicit that all values are subjective, not just some of them.

Mind you, a Praxeologist understands that all ethics are rational, regardless of what those ethics are.

We’re not talking about economics. We’re talking about praxeology. Praxeology relates to human action, not economics specifically.

All values are subjective in the sense that it’s up to the person to pick values. Doesn’t mean a person can’t pick their values based on facts.

But that’s not what the Misesians mean when they say that “values are subjective”.

Nobody said that, if “values are subjective”, then people “can’t pick their values based on facts”.

(Note: Between the first and second part of that statement, I’m equivocating between ultimate values and higher level values.)

Praxeology says that we can’t say anything but this:

  1. “X leads to Y.”

  2. “So, if you want Y, then you should also want X.”

And of course that’s all that we need for an “ethics” or to know “what sort of social system to use”!

Good call. But unfortunately for your argument, the establishment of rights also precludes the argument for a monopoly on force, as that monopoly would necessarily violate the rights of people to use force on their own behalves in some cases, and to delegate their right to defend themselves to an agent of their own choice.

Of course, but only until you reach your “subjective values”!

(But, wait, aren’t our subjective values also “objective facts”?)

Only if the red-haired are disarmed and disenfranchised, because otherwise people are going to find it much easier to eat cows, which do not fight back. Or if those who wish to eat red-haired people have the power to coerce others to risk their own lives for the cause. And those conditions require a state.

Why would I even want Y? What does Y lead to? Really, an objective sort of ethics follows the same sort of formulation. “X leads to life. So, if you want life, you should do X.” If you don’t want life, or ignore that as your end, then it doesn’t much matter what you do, though WHATEVER it is that you seek is a value. I would want life because it makes my values possible.