why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

[Angurse]

@bloomj31

So are you still willing to give it a shot?

Absolutely.* Are you ready to give up that failed objection?

*To be fair I don’t consider myself an anarchist

[bloomj31]

Filc, let me finish Manias, Panics and Crashes by Charles Kinderberger, the Crash of 1907: Lessons Learned from the Market’s Perfect Storm and Mackay’s Extraodinary Popular Delusions before I really try to answer those questions.

[filc]

During the housing bubble people were acting entirely economically rational. The price of credit was distorted and it gave the appearance to many that they could afford that which they actually could not. The ABCT does not define people as being irrational or stupid. It defines them as being misled and it defines the system as a whole being superficial.

[Giant_Joe]

@bloomj31

@Giant_Joe

They Keynesian explanation doesn’t mention the increase of credit by a central bank being the cause for a “rise in animal spirits”. The Austrian explanation does mention that the central bank is involved in the increased consumption that causes an unsustainable boom.

Ok, has an unsustainable boom ever occurred where there was no central bank?

To be more specific, it is an expansion of credit, which can be facilitated by a central bank. Credit expansion can happen as a result of a central bank’s activities. If you can find an unsustainable boom that wasn’t caused by a credit expansion, then I believe (take my word with a pinch of salt, other member have much more expertise) you will have a good case against the theory.

[filc]

@bloomj31

Filc, let me finish Manias, Panics and Crashes by Charles Kinderberger, the Crash of 1907: Lessons Learned from the Market’s Perfect Storm and Mackay’s Extraodinary Popular Delusions before I really try to answer those questions.

Great, let me know if that book can tell you when someone is acting irrational. You and I can get together and build a societal framework that matches our rational criteria. Thanks comrade.

[bloomj31]

@Angurse

Absolutely. Are you ready to give up that failed argument?

*To be fair I don’t call myself an anarchist

I’ll be more inclined to give up my argument when more people are anarcho-capitalists.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@bloomj31

@Daniel Muffinburg

What does that have to do with the current situation? Anyway, 20% plus unemployment plus higher rates of taxation while real wages are dropping seems pretty good to you? Transferring trillions of dollars of purchasing power to Wall Street and away from everyone else seems pretty good to you?

No, none of those things are good. But the question I can’t help but ask is “couldn’t that same stuff happen without a government?”

Yes. So, how does that justify the state?

[bloomj31]

@Daniel Muffinburg

Yes. So, how does that justify the state?

Couldn’t those things happen without a state? Is correlation, in this case, causation?

[DanielMuffinburg]

@bloomj31

@filc

Economically speaking yes, they are. We have not the tools to judge them otherwise. Lest we consider ourselves omniscient.

So how do we explain manias and panics? Are people acting rationally even when they’re buying assets at prices that can’t possibly be sustainable with the hope that they’ll find the next sucker? Is that really rational?

I suggest you read Rothbard’s America’s Great Depression.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@bloomj31

@Daniel Muffinburg

Yes. So, how does that justify the state?

Couldn’t those things happen without a state? Is correlation, in this case, causation?

Look, if you want to be enslaved to the state, go ahead, but why should I be forced to do so?

[bloomj31]

@Daniel Muffinburg

I suggest you read Rothbard’s America’s Great Depression.

Alright, I’ll read that after I’ve read all these other books. I want to hear both sides on this.

[bloomj31]

@Daniel Muffinburg

Look, if you want to be enslaved to the state, go ahead, but why should I be forced to do so?

You shouldn’t have to be. If I could, I’d let all the an-cap people start their own area.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@bloomj31

@Daniel Muffinburg

Look, if you want to be enslaved to the state, go ahead, but why should I be forced to do so?

You shouldn’t have to be. If I could, I’d let all the an-cap people start their own area.

Then how can you justify the state we have now, and how could it possibly be not that bad when it enslaves people who choose not to be enslaved?

[mouser98]

@laminustacitus

@mouser98

the basic premise behind an-cap is not that humans are rational or good, its that the state provides the framework for psychopaths to murder people and claim legitimacy while they are doing it.

And why won’t PDAs give both the framework, and legitimacy for psychopaths to murder people?

@mouser98

What you fail to realize is that no one is protecting us from the bad men now, and we don’t even have the right to defend ourselves against them.

If a man breaks into my house, and I call the police, they will bring him to justice. Your statement has just been falsified.

you don’t get it.

what if those men breaking into your house are the police themselves just doing their job arresting you because you are Jewish?

[bloomj31]

@Daniel Muffinburg

Then how can you justify the state we have now, and how could it possibly be not that bad when it enslaves people who choose not to be enslaved?

To answer this question with another: How does it help me to fight for your freedom from the state? What do I stand to gain?

[filc]

@bloomj31

@Daniel Muffinburg

Then how can you justify the state we have now, and how could it possibly be not that bad when it enslaves people who choose not to be enslaved?

To answer this question with another: How does it help me to fight for your freedom from the state? What do I stand to gain?

Allow me to answer your question with another,

What do I stand to gain by not robbing your house at gunpoint? Those were some nice paintings you just hung on your wall and that sofa would look good in my spare bedroom.

[DanielMuffinburg]

@bloomj31

@Daniel Muffinburg

Then how can you justify the state we have now, and how could it possibly be not that bad when it enslaves people who choose not to be enslaved?

To answer this question with another: How does it help me to fight for your freedom from the state? What do I stand to gain?

I don’t know. I don’t know your thoughts on this. Anyway, could you at least my question? Btw, nice to see that you finally make a non-collectivist statement or question.

[bloomj31]

@filc

Allow me to answer your question with another,

What do I stand to gain by not robbing your house at gunpoint? Those were some nice paintings you just hung on your wall and that sofa would look good in my spare bedroom.

I suppose if you think you can get away with it, you’re free to try.

[filc]

@bloomj31

@filc

Allow me to answer your question with another,

What do I stand to gain by not robbing your house at gunpoint? Those were some nice paintings you just hung on your wall and that sofa would look good in my spare bedroom.

I suppose if you think you can get away with it, you’re free to try.

I’m assuming your discounting the economic intensive society has at removing the state?

And in other words. Your ok with stealing, robbing, pillaging, and extorting from your neighbor so long as you don’t have to bear the consequences of doing so. You seem like a real stand-up guy!

[bloomj31]

@Daniel Muffinburg

Then how can you justify the state we have now, and how could it possibly be not that bad when it enslaves people who choose not to be enslaved?

I don’t know. I don’t know your thoughts on this. Anyway, could you at least my question? Btw, nice to see that you finally make a non-collectivist statement or question.

The question is not if it’s bad or not. It is. The question is “do people stand to gain more from enslaving a few people like yourself than they do by allowing you to be free?” As long as everyone decides it’s in their interest to not give you your freedom, you won’t have it. If you can sell anarcho-capitalism better, it will win and so will you.