Zeitgeist Movement along with the Venus Project

[chloe732]

Roan Carratu,

I read your Bio. You certainly possess the maturity and experience to see through something that is flawed. You are certainly not naive. I read that you are surprised when you wake up alive each day. Please, take some time and study economics, sound economics in the tradition of the Austrian school. I suggest taking one month, do some intense reading. The flaws in Zeitgeist Movement’s economic system will become obvious.

I, and I believe most everyone here in this forum, would be glad to suggest some books on this website, all of which can be freely downloaded. Books that you can absorb in a few days, that will completely change your thinking about what markets are and how economic systems work. All you have to do is ask.

Please don’t waste another day. Good luck to you.

[Roan_Carratu]

Good question, Konteu. The Zeitgeist Movement has at it’s most basic core that no violence or intimidation will be allowed, at least by the membership. Therefore people will be able to do what they wish as long as they don’t harm others. And since the ZM will not have policemen or armies or anything like that, anyone who wants to have some kind of money system… well, it will be their own business, won’t it? I tend to doubt there will be many who do such a thing, because if you can have anything you want, within reason, according to the resources available, why would they need an ‘exchange’ system? It would then become a game, nothing more, a virtual game.

I can hear the questions and protests the above paragraph will produce… lol. I will not debate this, because it is senseless to argue, considering those who argue seldom change their minds. lol. I doubt many will be able to understand the ZM concepts from where they are now. That’s ok… it’s not a matter of superiority or inferiority… it’s all about cultural conditioning, which our present culture is expert at… And that will change anyway because of continuing information flow.

I want to say that there will be no ‘elites’ running the show in a Zeitgeist RBE… no ‘elected’ officials or employers with life and death control over the population or anything like that. Frankly, nobody wants to replace the existing system with a system that is just like this one. This is why we don’t accept any political or economic rationals… they are obsolete. Before the ‘what ifs’ swamp your mind, consider what kind of world would you really like to live in, one where you have to sell your sweat to get basic life support or one where you can do what you want, including doing nothing at all if you wish.

We want a system that is based upon the Scientific Method, a system which is voluntary, a system which has no ‘hierarchies’ controlling everyone’s lives, with or without ‘symbols of permission’ like money. And it is not based upon ideals and other purely conceptual ‘pie in the sky’ stuff… it has to be rational and based upon science.

We want it based upon Comprehensive Design Science, not partial, greed oriented, fear driven, foolishness. We don’t want to have a billion people going hungry because of a symbolic system of control and our mutual natural ecology support system must not be destroyed in the process of generating our civilization. Did you know that we are currently in a Human generated Mass Extinction Event, worse than almost all the other six in pre-history? And it’s all because of the way we think, and our actions coming from the systems we think in.

And it’s not just about robots either… the level of automation we can have right now… not in the future but right now, far exceeds everyone’s imaginations. At one time, all wealth was generated by human sweat, but that situation is no longer necessary. But you don’t have to believe me… do your own research… it’s all out there. I don’t argue the ZM vision because I don’t need to. The Universe is my greatest advocate, in the results of using purely conceptual systems which do not have much relationship with actual reality. …As those on here who think my answers are hogwash will find out as the ecology deteriorates and economic and political system fail big time. So be it… I hate that idea, but it may be that way anyway.

Peace and good health,

Roan Carratu

[Esuric]

I can hear the questions and protests the above paragraph will produce… lol. I will not debate this, because it is senseless to argue, considering those who argue seldom change their minds.

No one wants to debate this. The fact that you say you wont kill those who wish to employ a common medium of exchange is entirely immaterial. The fact of the matter is that it must necessarily emerge. It is the inevitable consequence of rational action by actors who wish to better their own condition. A system without money cannot express opportunity costs; all goods are valued in terms of all other goods. There can be no rational economic calculation and therefore no rational economic system. The only way you can possibly avoid this major dilemma is by introducing another major dilemma, namely the claim that you will eliminate scarcity. But such a claim is inherently meaningless. It fundamentally misunderstands human nature and action.

I doubt many will be able to understand the ZM concepts from where they are now. That’s ok… it’s not a matter of superiority or inferiority… it’s all about cultural conditioning, which our present culture is expert at… And that will change anyway because of continuing information flow.

This is the type of garbage you hear from these mystics. Whenever you explode/reveal the untenability of their fantasies they simply dismiss you as “conditioned.” It’s like Marxian polylogism.

We want a system that is based upon the Scientific Method, a system which is voluntary, a system which has no ‘hierarchies’ controlling everyone’s lives, with or without ‘symbols of permission’ like money.

Money is not a “symbol of permission.” It is the common medium of exchange which allows the expression of opportunity costs, objective exchange values, and it resolves the double coincidence of wants.

[Roan_Carratu]

LOL… the Zeitgeist Movement has no ‘economics’ in it. It is based upon getting rid of the whole concept of ‘economics’ as an unnecessary conceptual system which has never worked. The wealth generated since machines became the method of production did not come from ‘economics’ but from technology, applied technology. If everything had to be made by hand, do you think we would have this level of wealth?

I need no conceptual fantasies. Especially fantasies which are enforced by violence and intimidation, metering out life support for obedience and sweat.

No matter how logical or complete a fantasy is, it remains a fantasy. If it’s a self-consistent logic structure, then it is no different than any other belief, like ‘born again’ Christianity, with certain basic ‘absolutes’ which cannot be questioned and from which the rest of the conceptual structure originates. And it is based upon some level of fear, like ‘going to hell’ or ‘becoming homeless’… The fear is the incentive of the rulers, those who are talented at gaining power through the conceptual system, like politicians, priests or billionaires, or for that matter, Generals.

I was just responding to a mistaken explanation in this forum, received through Google’s Alerts. I did not know this was a dedicated group forum or I would not have responded here. Just like I don’t respond to fundamentalist religious forums.

Do you understand that "economics’ is a conceptual social system which stands between the thought and the action? In order to do anything in this system, you have to go through that conceptual social system and it has to be ‘approved’ by others, which may or may not have any of the interests you have. A RBE is a system which is based upon resources, which means if you want to do something, and if the resources are available, you can do it.

Will there be limits? I expect so, especially if you want to build a nuclear bomb or something like it. How that will be decided however will not be based upon human opinions… it will be based upon computer algorithms, although not like you have in your little personal computer. How it will operate is not figured out yet. We figure a few hundred million people will be required to weigh in on such decisions, which they will be able to do. That is yet to be designed, of course, but the Internet shows the way. We are like cavemen arguing about the demons that eat the wood in our campfire… our assumptions and data is so incomplete we cannot get a workable understanding… but the ZM hopes to change that, not by forcing it, but by making it so attractive people will want to do it. For the most part, I doubt there will be many restrictions except that people will always come first, the prime consideration and the basis of all value. But the ideas of the ZM are not fixed… they will change, and if possible, change for the better over time as more people get into it.

Well, that should produce a bit of a firestorm here. lol.

Peace and good health to all of you,

Roan Carratu.

[Esuric]

the Zeitgeist Movement has no ‘economics’ in it. It is based upon getting rid of the whole concept of ‘economics’ as an unnecessary conceptual system which has never worked.

I understand. You choose to ignore all arguments that reveal the inherent absurdity of your claims. Your attack is on reason itself. Politicians employ this very same tactic.

The wealth generated since machines became the method of production did not come from ‘economics’ but from technology, applied technology.

This is inherently meaningless. Economics studies the processes by which capital is accumulated and the conditions/institutions which facilitate entrepreneurial discovery, coordination, and innovation.

If everything had to be made by hand, do you think we would have this level of wealth?

No. Surely not.

If it’s a self-consistent logic structure, then it is no different than any other belief, like ‘born again’ Christianity, with certain basic ‘absolutes’ which cannot be questioned and from which the rest of the conceptual structure originates.

Logic is universal. Those who dismiss logic are, by definition, mystics. “One must not confuse knowledge with mysticism. The mystic may say that “shadow and sunlight are the same.” But knowledge starts from the clear distinction between A and non-A.”

it will be based upon computer algorithms, although not like you have in your little personal computer.

And how will these computer algorithms measure purely ordinal, subjective, and individual value scales? Who will invent these computers and computer programs? And who will pay for their labor, capital, and time?

How it will operate is not figured out yet

Of course. I’ll wait here. When you figure it out, come back.

[chloe732]

Roan Carratu - “LOL… the Zeitgeist Movement has no ‘economics’ in it.”

I guess this means you won’t be asking us for reading suggestions?

"Well, that should produce a bit of a firestorm here. lol. "

There will be no firestorm. You’ve come to wrong forum for that. Not worth it. Take care.

[Naevius]

Naevius, the Zeitgeist movement is not socialist. It is simply not capitalist, and you may fail to realize that everything does not fit in any of your categories . Do you think nothing can be new, unheard of, never thought about?

Perhaps. Still, the Zeitgeist movement, according to the FAQ on the site (which I only was able to read a few pages of before turning away again in disgust) advocates the abolition of a means of exchange (which is impossible, really, as no matter what happens or where you go, it is an inexorable law of human action that humans will eventually find some common medium of exchange–for example, the use of cigarettes in some prisons), abolition of private property, and some form of central planning (whether it be by fallible men or these magical yet-undiscovered algorithms). The Zeitgeist movement isn’t like any form of socialism I know about, but it still holds the most basic roots with socialism.

LOL… the Zeitgeist Movement has no ‘economics’ in it. It is based upon getting rid of the whole concept of ‘economics’ as an unnecessary conceptual system which has never worked. The wealth generated since machines became the method of production did not come from ‘economics’ but from technology, applied technology. If everything had to be made by hand, do you think we would have this level of wealth?

But economics is a subset of praxeology, the study of human action. As long as humans act, the laws of economics will hold. I can say that I’m going to go create a world without physics and it might be a charming and fanciful little fairy tale, but it will hardly be realistic or possible.

No matter how logical or complete a fantasy is, it remains a fantasy. If it’s a self-consistent logic structure, then it is no different than any other belief, like ‘born again’ Christianity, with certain basic ‘absolutes’ which cannot be questioned and from which the rest of the conceptual structure originates. And it is based upon some level of fear, like ‘going to hell’ or ‘becoming homeless’… The fear is the incentive of the rulers, those who are talented at gaining power through the conceptual system, like politicians, priests or billionaires, or for that matter, Generals.

You’re confusing violently imposed leaps of faith with reasoning from first principles, if I understand your flowery prose correctly. Praxeology is reasoning from fundamental axioms (ones that are completely obvious, like “Humans act.” You cannot disprove that first statement because simply by trying to do so, you act and prove that statement).

But it is not easy to understand, because we are so tightly conditioned by the money system most people tend to freak out a little when hearing about it, putting it in some pigeonhole in their minds which usually has nothing to do with the RBE concept.

I hope you don’t mean by this that you believe that we’re somehow deluded by cultural indoctrination to hold these views, my friend. I have never known a man or woman born and raised Austro-libertarian. All of us are here precisely because we pierced the veil of indoctrination in the first place. Me? I was hardcore neoconservative (which I believe stemmed from my deep-seated trust issues, but that’s neither here nor there) before I managed to figure out the games that were being played with us and sought out the truth. You can normally count on us to see through indoctrination.

---

Ah, seems I was beaten to the punch by the inimitable Esuric in the first place, who makes similar points far better than an amateur like me can.

[Roan_Carratu]

lol! I didn’t really think anyone on here could think outside their accustomed mental frameworks. You have no idea what I was saying because you have fixed ideas of ‘human nature’ and how humans survive and interact. NP. But at least you know now that there are lots of people who are thinking outside the mental framework you ascribe to.

And we are not going to let the world die from purely human misunderstanding of basic survival requirements.

Peace,

Roan

[liberty_student]

@Roan Carratu

You have no idea what I was saying because you have fixed ideas of ‘human nature’ and how humans survive and interact.

But this is a strawman. You claim to be for science, and yet you refuse to acknowledge logic. If nothing is fixed (known) how to do you intend to engage in the scientific method, and how do you intend to reach scientific conclusions?

@Roan Carratu

But at least you know now that there are lots of people who are thinking outside the mental framework you ascribe to.

You mean scientists who don’t use logic? We know all about the Keynesians.

@Roan Carratu

And we are not going to let the world die from purely human misunderstanding of basic survival requirements.

Right, you’re not going to let it happen, but you’re not going to employ violence. How then do you intend to save the world?

[Catalan]

Roan Carratu,

But it is not easy to understand, because we are so tightly conditioned by the money system most people tend to freak out a little when hearing about it, putting it in some pigeonhole in their minds which usually has nothing to do with the RBE concept.

It’s not that we’ve been “tightly conditioned” by money. It’s only that we recognize money as the best way to ration goods and services.

The answer I read that led me to this site is completely wrong, for the Zeitgeist Movement/Venus Project does not advocate a ‘central planning council’ to control resources. It is not as simple as that, and not centralized as that responder thought. ‘Pigeonhole’ again, I think. Something new, some new concept, is always met with both dersion and pigeonholing, like those who think the Zeitgeist Movement vision is ‘communist’ or like some other 'ism.

Then perhaps you should use better examples on your website, instead of pointing out how the United States centrally distributed resources to build 90,000 aircraft during the Second World War (of course, and neglecting to mention the fall in production of private goods).

[Angurse]

“If nothing is fixed (known) how to do you intend to engage in the scientific method, and how do you intend to reach scientific conclusions?”

I think the answer is pretty obvious: computers!

[Dondoolee]

It is impossible to have a system that says you can / can not have property and not have a gun behind the decree. It is only with contract that it can be minimized. More over it is impssosible to have arbitrary catagorizations and then apply a system to cater to arbitrary catagorizations (society, human, value, elite, etc) and expect it to calculate what is best for whatever an indvidual or anything that is capabale of atomizing to a point of self awarness defines themselve as. You are truley having ghosts running a material world…of course what else can one expect from a name like Zeitgeist.

Leftism in every form fails miserably by almost any standard or any measurement you want to give it.

[Jon_Irenicus]

LOL… the Zeitgeist Movement has no ‘economics’ in it. It is based upon getting rid of the whole concept of ‘economics’ as an unnecessary conceptual system which has never worked. The wealth generated since machines became the method of production did not come from ‘economics’ but from technology, applied technology. If everything had to be made by hand, do you think we would have this level of wealth?

Pretty broad assertion with no backing behind it. Perhaps you honestly have no idea what economics is or what its purpose is, but are you willing to learn? Can you leave your own mental “box”? I hope so, else you really will find this forum useless (and I in turn you.)

[Mises_Pieces]

LOL… Finally, a system that will abolish scarcity!!!

Never heard this one before…

[Roan_Carratu]

Perhaps I have an excellent grasp of economics, which is why I find it a naive and foolish paradigm. Can you honestly tell me that the wealth in real terms which has been generated in the last hundred years came from money? Or did it come from applied technology? Do you think we cannot have one without the other?

And since I am putting in question the very foundation of this forum, I’m not surprised you would find my words useless. But I didn’t come here to argue about this stuff, so I am bowing out. I do not wish to step upon your ‘religion’. (which is another conceptual system people mistake for reality…)

Goodbye.

[Azure]

And how will these computer algorithms measure purely ordinal, subjective, and individual value scales? Who will invent these computers and computer programs? And who will pay for their labor, capital, and time?

This is the question that really interests me, and unfortunately the ZM’s don’t really have an answer for it. I don’t claim to be a representitive of their ideas, but here’s my understanding of their solution for this:

When an individual wants something in Zeitgeist World, they’ll just submit a request through “the next internet” or something like that. A giant supercomputer will take in all of these requests and, somehow, find a way to manage all the available resources in such a way as to satisfy every desire submitted. It will also be smart enough to anticipate consumer wants in advance, and have things produced and ready to ship before they’re even asked for.

[Mises_Pieces]

“Can you honestly tell me that the wealth in real terms which has been generated in the last hundred years came from money?”

Without being able to refer to money prices of relative production factors, how would the producers of this wealth have known what and how much to produce?

Economic calculation is impossible in a barter system. Just because you don’t like economics, scarcity, money, and praxeological law doesn’t make any of these concepts any less valid. Your fantasies of potential plenty derived from “computers” and “machines” is completely baseless and has no applicability to human society.

[Snowflake]

@Azure

When an individual wants something in Zeitgeist World, they’ll just submit a request through “the next internet” or something like that. A giant supercomputer will take in all of these requests and, somehow, find a way to manage all the available resources in such a way as to satisfy every desire submitted. It will also be smart enough to anticipate consumer wants in advance, and have things produced and ready to ship before they’re even asked for.

So whats stopping the ZM? They don’t need the coopeartion of every human on earth, right? Sure the capitalists own all the technology now, but thankfully we can buy it. If all the ZMers pooled their money they’d be able to buy whatever machines they think will create utopia, buy one of Greece’s islands, and have a suberabundant garden of eden, right?

[Azure]

Perhaps I have an excellent grasp of economics, which is why I find it a naive and foolish paradigm. Can you honestly tell me that the wealth in real terms which has been generated in the last hundred years came from money? Or did it come from applied technology? Do you think we cannot have one without the other?

I know I’m feeding the troll here and you probably won’t read this anyway, but I’m gonna go ahead and respond anyway.

Yes, it was the work of people and the advancements in technology that made all of the wealth we enjoy today physically possible. Nobody here will deny this.

However, why is it that the producers made what was made? Why did entrepreneurs elect to build cars and planes instead of, say, massive amounts of rubber banana peels?

[Azure]

So whats stopping the ZM? They don’t need the coopeartion of every human on earth, right? Sure the capitalists own all the technology now, but thankfully we can buy it. If all the ZMers pooled their money they’d be able to buy whatever machines they think will create utopia, buy one of Greece’s islands, and have a suberabundant garden of eden, right?

The technology does not exist yet, and the ZMers believe the money system is preventing it from being so. The exploiters want to uphold their standard of living by making good artificially scarce. We have to get rid of the capitalists before we can have superabundance. When the incentive of greed is removed, mankind will be freed, as he will be able to produce for the good of humanity rather than for the good of a chosen few.

ZMers are basically Marxists with a futurist twist. They, like their transhumanist bretheren, blindly place all of their faith in the power of the enhancement of the material forces of production.