I am posting here to see if anybody else here has an encountered the large number of dolts that go around yelling “The Fed is private!” and thus implying that is why it is so bad, and why it must be abolished. The very fact that people can call a government central bank, created by Congress, with 7 board members appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, operating under the decree of government creating legal tender, and being exempt from taxes, and free from any competition de jure private is just completely laughable in itself.
However, there are a couple substantial problems with this aside from people basking in their own ignorance. This is something that, because it is so widespread can really discredit the movement to abolish the Fed. If these people hate something because they are under the false impression that it is private, they must be advocating socialism. I try to explain to these people all the time (usually online) that they are mistaken and that the Fed is a government central bank, and that it is central banking that is the problem, not private enterprise. Although none of them can present a refutation in an attempt to defend their untenable position that the Fed is private, I don’t think I am getting through to them. I think that the problem lies in the fact that they are completely ignorant of economics and their only argument against the Fed is that “it’s private” - when of course it’s not, and of course something being private is no reason to oppose it. This issue honestly makes me blood boil.
Has anybody else here encountered this problem? How have you all dealt with these people who are making a bad name for the anti-Fed movement? This is a huge problem and there are a large number of people opposed to the Fed saying this nonsense. This problem must be resolved as fast as possible.
It’s a common occurence and I usually deal with it by asking how a government granted monopoly is “private”. Blank out. No answer, or if there is it’s a re-assertion of their claim. So I don’t know.
Yes, I have encountered this problem. It is, I believe quite serious.
If you want to know how serious this problem can potentially become, check out the reviews on Amazon for “The Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown. She is picking up innocent victims one by one.
Stephen Zarlenga and Ellen Brown are I think the leading advocates of this “crank” theory.
This problem seems to be a subset of a bigger problem that I notice, and that is a false dichotomy of “public vs. private” that socialists and interventionists are promoting. There is (I think intentionally) never any distinction between “private in a free market” and just “private”. The correct dichotomy should be “free market vs. non-free market” or something of that nature.
I believe that many people are falling for this nonsense simply out of pure lack of economics, particularly Austrian economics. These false ideas have managed to infiltrate the conservative, libertarian, and socialist movements together and it appears to be a mess. It is, I believe, why there many on the left that are supporting HR1207.
I have tried in the past to deal directly with the more extreme of these people directly on Ellen Brown’s Blog (webofdebt.com). I have had many exchanges with Ellen Brown herself on her Blog, and I am quite convinced that she is driven by a pure socialist agenda.
Isn’t one of the purposes of the fed the cartelization of the banking industry ? The CB may not be private but it does benefit the nominally private (mixed) banking sector. People who complain about the fed being private are not completely off the mark IMO. Granted, they usually are lefties who want to nationalize all banks tho…
Yes, I think this is a problem too. I’ve definitely encountered it as well. As DD5 said it’s not understanding the free market, and to get caught up in “private” can make it shady. I’ve gone through the rundown that you listed about Congress chartering it, President appoints Federal Reserve chairman, etc…, but then I’ve had the rebuttal that the firms that hold a stake in the Federal Reserve are private banks that own stock in the free market. Then I say the main difference is the free market didn’t make the Federal Reserve. The government made it. The free market did not spontaneously erect it. The government had to and as Jon pointed out then I go through what a government granted monopoly is and draw that as the line in how it is not a free market entity but a government made institution. I hear crickets after that. But they go on talking about how it is “Private”, etc… still. I’ve even had somebody agree with me and then on internet radio continue to say it’s a “Private” bank and never explain on air what he meant. I don’t think it was intentional cause some of these people seem to be well versed in understanding property. It seems to have turned into a hip-concept to call it “private” to show these private individuals have such governmental powers. I think what the problem is, is it is private on the one hand, but government institutionalized on the other. It’s the hazy shade of corporate capitalism. But anymore those same firms/banks that have stock in the Federal Reserve get constant government bailouts. The whole thing is either communism or corporate capitalism. But it’s definitely not a free market enterprise. And “private” is vague too. The Freedom of Information Act can’t open it’s doors for scrutiny, but non-government agencies can’t open it’s doors either. The Federal Reserve, if you watch closely, will play both sides to avoid anybody being to see what they are doing. Actually all central banks around the world do this, well, I’m not sure if all do, but I know the Icelandic Central Bank does this. They say the government can’t look at their workings cause they are private, but when the citizens wanted to check their books (as all the scandals in Iceland have been opened like Pandora’s Box with all going on there), the central bank says it has a government charter and can’t be opened by non-government investigative agencies. Obviously they play both sides but if government people or not really wanted to they could look into central banks more - and that’s a problem in and of itself. Too many interests in central banks, too much government interest and so the government protects it with a monopoly on the one hand but politically the politicians lie and say stuff like, “Yeah it needs looked into,” etc, etc, but they haven’t yet.
Anyways explaining it from a free market perspective usurps any opponents position, and is a lot simpler than having to go through all that I just here in this post…lol. It was not spontaneously erected by the free market, but by the government and has the government monopoly coercion to back it up.
To say the Federal Reserve Bank is NOT private is just as ignorant. Its a quasi-public and quasi-private entity.
To be honest, and I can say this since I am new here and not committed to either side, if you Austrians want to be taken seriously, you need to stop being so pretentious and getting caught up in EVERY SINGLE SMALL DETAIL. Yes, it is important to educate the masses, but no one is going to take you seriously if you belittle them and attack them so aggressively. It is not like you guys are genius economists. You get all your information from reading books about the subject (I doubt many of you are actual economists who partake in economic decisions) so you are basically using someone elses ideas to try to defame the ideas of another.
Taken seriously by whom? People who think that theft and violence are valid forms of governance? That economies should be based on need and not production? The people who created the current economic nightmare?
Who exactly should we pander to by watering down the message?
As compared to which genius economists?
Everyone takes part in economic decisions every single day. You don’t need to be an economist to participate in, or understand the economy (No offense GMU economists).
It’s not about defamation. It is about correcting someone else’s wrong position or proposition.
The FED is not really private. It is formed by an act of Congress, it has powers delegated from the Congress, and it answers to the President (see Arthur Burns, Germany). In the sense that Mises said there was no third solution, it was the market or the state, so too is the FED not a market institution, it is at best a 3rd solution, which means it must be part of the state.
The FED has a MONOPOLY power to create money. Regulatory monopoly can only occur under the state, by the state.
When people like Alex Jones talk about private bankers, he is letting all of the government crooks off the hook, which seems to be his recent MO because he has been tight with that LaRouchie doofus Webster Tarpley, who thinks the New Deal was great, and labour power should be assured by the state.
So you belittle people while telling them to not belittle people. How quaint. And if you want to be taken seriously then say something with reason or else your little emotional eruption is nothing more than mindless writings on the wall. Fair enough? Or else you have nothing better to do with your life than cry for attention.
You misunderstand me, I am very much for the support of Austrian ideas. At the very least they should recieve the same amount of attention in the media as other economic ideas. But just because you are “right” in your ideas (I can’t tell if you are or not) does not mean you have to attack people while doing so. Given your level of education, you should know by now that people do not like being told they are wrong. THAT is why no one listens to Austrian economists. If you could find a way to suggest your ideas without being like “I HATE when people say the Fed is private, they are obviously morons and I tell them this everyday!” then people will probably see the sense in what Austrian economics has to offer. I saw someone say something about how Austrian economics has solved these current issues over 100 years ago. Well they did not do a really good job spreading the knowledge did they? If the way you were going about things was correct, you wouldn’t have this obscure website with only a fraction of a fraction of the population even aware of it. I mean, my cousin is a few weeks away from recieving his masters in history and he didn’t find out what Austrian economics was until LAST YEAR. And the professor did such a bad job explaining the subject that noone in the class passed.
I understand that the Federal Reserve is bad, and Liberty Student in particular did a good job last night explaining my last fundamental question regarding the issue. I want these ideas to succeed as much as anyone, and in order to see this through, I am going to say why I think the current approach is not working.
Go to my post in this thread. Can you point out that I did not make any intellectual argument?
I guess you may not realize the magnitude of the State and it’s violent operations. Keynesians and other statist economists get their hand in the cookie jar cause they work for the State. Austrian economics shows the fallacies of why State intervention doesn’t work. Now obviously the State isn’t going to hire economists that tell its “boss” aka the State that it (the boss) is doing a terrible job. That’s not understanding how statist like to make themselves feel important. For instance AIG gave out bonuses after the bailout from the government. Congress was in an uproar about the bonuses. Well low and behold the bailout bill said AIG could still give out bonuses and Congressional members that voted “yes” authorized the bonuses therefore. Well all those Congressional members that were crying out that AIG gave out bonuses also voted “yes” on the bill. They didn’t even read the bill. So they should be doing some introspection and yelling at themselves. But they don’t. They never do unless it’s political good for them to do so. They hurried up and tried to let that one blow over real quick. The State needs to feel important and to feel as if they are doing something good. But 100% of the time their doings are harming somebody. They call it “unintended consequences”. It’s all a fraud.
Well now you may understand what we are up against. There are real forces at work in this world.
It’s not working. So do something. I’m trying. I think you are willing to try. Don’t put any pressure on yourself and I really try not to put it on myself either. I’m ecstatic it’s still possible to expand this process. It’s actually growing now. Many people are waking up to what’s going on. People have been duped for decades and generations for the most part. You are part of the generation that is waking up and finding others like yourself. We are turning this around. This is the real deal. Thank goodness for the internet!
I think calling a government central bank private shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of what private property and free enterprise is. If you think the Fed is at all private, please, I implore you, go start writing checks against yourself and thus creating legal tender and don’t pay taxes.
Wilderness, you actually made my point for me. People do NOT like being told they are wrong, just as you said. We need to find a way to integrate Austrian economics into the way economics is taught without being like “you are WRONG and we are RIGHT!”
I understand the violent operations we are up against as much as the next guy. Just because I am new to Austrian economics does not mean I am new to learning. Sorry if I do not know the sophisticated economic terms, but I want to learn, and its quite a turnoff when I get two or three people telling me how stupid I am when I raise questions soley for the sake of educating myself.
I understand the FRS to be a government mandated partnership to benefit the two party cartel of polytrixters and a select cartel of financial terrorist.
It’s not surprising that Austrian economists have not had a large voice in history considering what they have been up against during the past century, namely a society in which the means of mass communication and mass education are controlled by the partners mentioned above.
Along comes the internet and a seemingly uncontrollable financial crisis, and all of a sudden folks start to notice the the eccentric kid in the corner who hates to say he told you so.
Can you quote me where I did this? Quoting and then commenting upon that quote makes it so much easier to follow the conversation.
Well, if you’re told you’re stupid, then I understand. But I wouldn’t say that’s this website or the institute, that’s individuals, like yourself and me, coming into the forum, getting frustrated, and whatnot cause it’s tough what we are up against. Those are individuals you’re confronting and people tend to get quirky and emotional sometimes about something they feel very strongly about. But I’m sure I’m not saying anything new to you. Just shootin’ the breeze if you will.[:)]
Now to keep the focus cause in a cruel, cruel world there’s other needs that need honest attention:
Yeah, that’s a concern of mine too cause you never know how meme’s may adjust themselves amongst people that don’t know a whole lot about the Federal Reserve and all that.[:)]
Much as I admire the intent, getting rid of the Fed is a waste of time. The Fed is not the disease- it is a symptom of the disease.
Since when does getting rid of symptoms cure a disease? The disease?- government.
In other words, if you have a government you are going to have an institution [a symptom] like the Fed. If you “get rid if it” [i.e. suppress/ cut out a symptom] another institution[symptom] just like it, or, [shock/horror!] even worse, will manifest in its place, simply because the disease[ government] still exists.
The fed is simply one part of the price of having a government in the first place.
If it were possible [ and I’m not suggesting that it is ] to get rid of the disease [i.e .government], then you would no longer have the Fed symptom and all the rest of the palaver [think: endless list of other symptoms].
While getting rid of the government [the disease] “for the benefit of society” may well be impossible, you can still get the government[ i.e. the disease] out of your own life, on an individual basis, to your own standards, without any need to conform to anyone elses standards, and regardless of what happens to “society as a whole”.
People do it , on a individual scale, all the time.