A Question on Austrian Saving

It really depends whether you’re interested in tracing the real savings or the money savings. In the case of money savings and, if you regard hoarding as savings, of course it’s impossible for savings to equal investment when people are putting a bunch of savings under their mattresses. If you are interested in tracing the real savings instead, and you regard hoarding as savings, it’s possible for savings to equal investment but very very very unlikely (it would require ALL of the additional purchasing power that comes about as a result of the hoarder taking money out of the economy, and the subsequent fall in prices, to be transfered to investors… in reality a certain portion of that purchasing power is almost certain to be transfered to consumers as well as investors).

If, on the other hand, like Giles appears to be doing you choose instead to define savings as investment then the answer is quite straight forward.

Again, this depends on whether you are interested in tracking real savings or monetary savings. However in both cases I think it’s fair to say that banks will be able to increase the loan volumes under a fractional reserve system and loans will be made to ever more marginal borrowers… so a greater amount of investment will be undertaken at the beginning of the business cycle. However a greater amount of consumption will also be undertaken (in view of the fact that interest rates will be low and so there will be a lack of incentive to save). You essentially have a level of consumption + investment which exceeds the total production of the economy and so you will, temporarily, have a level of investment which exceeds the amount of savings.

This is a peculiar situation and the additional savings must either come from abroad (by borrowing) or by way of cannibilizing capital… both of which have occured more recently in the US with private and public debt rising whilst Mortgage Equity Withdrawls were used to facilitate the cannibilization of capital. Obviously, such a situation cannot persist indefinitely, however, and later on in the business cycle you’re going to get a bust during which investment and consumption combined must necessarily fall short of the total production and thus in which investment will be vastly inferior to savings… this is the price that must be paid for having tried to step outside the Production Possibilities Frontier earlier on.

Again, think carefully about whether you are interested in tracing real resources (and real savings) or dollar notes. The effects in both cases will not necessarily be the same.

For cash, yeah. While it’s in their wallet you’re not sure whether it will be converted into consumption or investment - this you can only know at the time the money is spent.

As Hazlitt pointed out though, the amount of money that is held in cash at any one time is ordinarily so trivial that it barely warrants atttention. It is only in very extreme circumstances that the proportion of people’s savings that they elect to keep on hand as cash will rise to any significant level. When you try to think about the consequences of them doing this, I would urge you to make a concerted effort to separate out the effects of this action (hoarding as the Keynesians call it) on money and its affects on the use of real resources/savings… since the two effects will be quite different.

I tend to focus on the real savings since, for the most part, I think the money is just a side show. It certainly has it’s place and it is an important place to the extent that it communicates price signals (both horizontally and vertically within the capital structure). But the ultimate goals of actors in the economy (whether they are aware of it or not) concern real goods and services with the money as just a stepping stone for obtaining what they want indirectly. As such, much more important than money savings, to my mind, are real savings.

You have neglected to consider that the price of real goods also drops for producers… The proportion of the hoarder’s purchasing power (resulting from this fall in prices) which gets transfered to consumers and the proportion that gets transfered to producers is difficult to know. It is almost certain that some of it will end up in the hands of both though.

If he were producing cars and not using/consuming them then he could be said to be saving them. Simply owning a car and not using it does not consittute savings. Savings requires simultaneously producing and not consuming (leaving a bit on the side, if you will). If I leave a tomatoe in the fridge can I be said to be accumulating savings? Does every second I don’t eat it constitute more tomatoe savings? Certainly not, the act of originally producing the tomatoe and not consuming it certainly resulted in savings of one tomatoe… from then on, what ultimately happens to the tomatoe (whether it is consumed in the process of tomatoe sause production or whether it is used to satisfy the needs of consumers directly) is another matter but it is this original production without consumption that constitutes saving.

I think that’s perhaps where we’re falling down here… you are considering only the period in time AFTER the hoarder has earned the $10 and thus what he does with it from that point. The production of real resources seems to be irrelevant from your point of view. To my mind, the production cannot be ignored since it is where the act of savings ultimately originates.

Well that depends whether the hoarder was a producer or a consumer now doesn’t it? If the hoarder was a consumer then it would be rather disingeneous to assume that the ratio of consumption to investment will stay the same. By abstaining from consuming he will inevitably tip the scales further towards investment and thus his hoarding will result in a lengthening of the structure of production.

http://blog.mises.org/archives/005763.asp

this article seems relevant, G Reisman.

comments? does it help or hurt?

Indeed, although, I still fail to see how this is relevant? It would seem as though hoarding in this regard does seem to have the same effects as saving, but that hardly makes the two equivelant.

I don’t see how this is relevant either. For the actor in question what matters is the future, not the past. Once again we can assume that the hoarder has produced whatever he has, however from here it is conceivable that we can imagine one situation in which the individual “hoards” and another in which he “saves”.

Indeed I did overlook this.

powerful and convincing paper:http://mises.org/pdf/asc/2003/asc9barnett.pdf block and barnett on the topic of money.

money qua means of exchange is a capital/producers good.

also this article Saving and Investment: A Praxeological Approach
William Barnett and Walter Block seems directly related to the discussion

http://pcpe.libinst.cz/nppe/3_2/nppe3_2_1.pdf

but referring to the first pdf, where exchange of titles, is praxeoligically speaking, a transformative process, i.e. productive, im not sure they can say that on the one hand, the exchange is a form of production, but on the other hand, nothing is therefore saved or invested, because the only way the productive process could lead to no net savings or investment would be if subjectively speaking from the point of view of the exchanger, there was a a counterbalancing simultaneous consumption of exactly the same amount, which seems unlikely as it doesnt allow for a value spread between what was traded away and what was traded for. hmmmmm