AE as Utopianism

[nazgulnarsil]

this post inspired by a comment over on Unqualified Reservations:

The Undiscovered Jew said…

But of course that sort of thing is not what goldbugs want. What goldbugs want is a gold standard of sufficient hardness as to preclude currency manipulation by any actor, be it individual bank, cabal of banks (i.e. central bank), or the state itself.

No government run by human beings will ever, ever, ever agree to restrict their power over the currency to the extent Austrian goldbugs want. Fractional Reserve Banking gives too much power to the elites to manipulate the economy. Nothing short of nuclear war would cause them to give it up.

Furthermore, even if an Austrian gold standard were somehow established, politicians would look for - and find - loopholes to undermine the constraints a true gold standard would place around government action.

This must be why the Lew Rockwellites want to effectively abolish government in favor of total economic anarcho-libertarianism. The paleolibertarians know that it is inconceivable any government on earth would allow a true Austrian gold standard. So, all forms of government must be abolished.

The goldbugs are therefore charging at windmills. They are dreaming of establishing an economic system that human nature is far too imperfect to sustain for any long period of time - which, ironically, makes them Utopians, inspite of paleolibertarian pretensions of representing the Old Right.

This is not to say that Fractional Reserve Banking as good or bad, just that we are stuck with FRB, or something similar to it, forever.

I mostly agree that we are a flavor of utopian. The vast majority of the human population acts like adult infants. Can i really blame despots for taking power when morons ask them to? I’d probably do the same given the opportunity.

[hayekianxyz]

Utopians? No, anarchism is coming whether not they like it, government isn’t a sustainable enteprise. Human nature is far to imperfect to sustain what we believe in for any period of time? No, human nature is to respond to incentives, the incentives of a free society are far more sustainable than that of the state, which is why we it will win out in the long run.

[Stranger]

There is nothing utopian about a gold standard being the best form of currency policy for the population. It is just an economic fact. What is utopian is expecting the oligarchy to do what is best for the population instead of what is best for the oligarchy. All the people writing about how such or such policy should be reformed are utopian because those policy proposals have no effect whatsoever on actual policy.

[nirgrahamUK]

@nazgulnarsil

What goldbugs want is a gold standard of sufficient hardness as to preclude currency manipulation by any actor, be it individual bank, cabal of banks (i.e. central bank), or the state itself.

perhaps not aware that the ‘mainstream’ libertarian position is pro free-market money, with a guess that this would mean a goldstandard, and not an apriori devotion to gold from first principles

@nazgulnarsil

No government run by human beings will ever, ever, ever agree to restrict their power over the currency to the extent Austrian goldbugs want. Fractional Reserve Banking gives too much power to the elites to manipulate the economy. Nothing short of nuclear war would cause them to give it up.

well, various governments have liberalised various markets, ok the more parasitic they can be in a market maybe the less likely they are to do it, but these probability questions are really red herrings i would think. Perhaps the nuclear bomb threat could be tested empirically?

saying that FRB gives too much power to elites, hence the elites cant be stopped seems a little circular, to me its motivation to stop them not a reason to avoid trying to stop them for fear of wasting ones time

@nazgulnarsil

Furthermore, even if an Austrian gold standard were somehow established, politicians would look for - and find - loopholes to undermine the constraints a true gold standard would place around government action.

liberty demands vigilance etc. etc.

@nazgulnarsil

This must be why the Lew Rockwellites want to effectively abolish government in favor of total economic anarcho-libertarianism. The paleolibertarians know that it is inconceivable any government on earth would allow a true Austrian gold standard. So, all forms of government must be abolished.

sure, ok.

@nazgulnarsil

The goldbugs are therefore charging at windmills. They are dreaming of establishing an economic system that human nature is far too imperfect to sustain for any long period of time - which, ironically, makes them Utopians, inspite of paleolibertarian pretensions of representing the Old Right.

liberty/anarchy is not incompatable with human nature i.e. with human beings qua human beings, though it is incompatible with a dominant number of human beings infected with the Statist meme, who cant see how this contradicts their own self-interests. but meme’s can change in populations. hence we are as utopion as abolutionists in the midst of the slavery period, and republicans amidsts feudalists/monarchists, and round earthers amongst flat-earthers etc. etc. in other words, not utopian, but ‘before our times’ or maybe bettter ‘ahead of the curve’

@nazgulnarsil

This is not to say that Fractional Reserve Banking as good or bad, just that we are stuck with FRB, or something similar to it, forever.

forever !?! thats nuts.

[liberty_student]

I don’t think we are utopian, and I don’t believe in pre-determined outcomes. I don’t believe we are permanently stuck with FRB, and it is defeatist and lazy to believe so.

The poster you quoted doesn’t seem to understand that the Rockwellites [sic] are not interested in a gold standard for the purpose of defeating FRB. The Rockwellites are interested in a laissez-faire society with rational property rights.

Many people cannot understand how gold relates to liberty because they don’t understand how property rights are the superstructure of a free, prosperous and peaceful society. The issue IMO isn’t educating about a gold standard, it’s about being able to articulate property rights to people who have never considered them within an ethical and rational framework.

One of the mistakes of paleos is that they go straight to gold without explaining property rights. These steps are important if you want to challenge people to think beyond the level of an adult infant.

Now their own laziness and guilt? Those are real psychological issues they can only overcome on their own.

[Juan]

This is not to say that Fractional Reserve Banking as good or bad, just that we are stuck with FRB, or something similar to it, forever.

Who is this arrogant idiot who thinks he knows the future ? And not just the foreseeable future but all of it ?

@nazulnarsil

I mostly agree that we are a flavor of utopian. The vast majority of the human population acts like adult infants. Can i really blame despots for taking power when morons ask them to? I’d probably do the same given the opportunity.

We need more defeatists.

[ProudCapitalist]

The “Undiscovered Jew” doesn’t argue that the values of libertarianism are bad, or that AE is false. His only argument is that “it is POLITICALLY impossible” today. As I see, that only strengthens the argument against the politics of today and furthers the cause of liberty and AE!

“Politicians won’t allow us” is not a kind of argument which we care a damn about.

Also, didn’t most state actually tolerate the use of gold as money until the 20th century? The socialization of money, in the scale we see today, is a modern invention and it is obviously tearing down the sky upon itself. Actually, I doubt that “more of the same” is “politically possible” in the long run. As soon as people turn their back on it, statism disapears in a cloud of history. But reality and theories describing it remain valid no matter what any human does.

[nazgulnarsil]

I can imagine no plausible route between where we are now and a free-market without the statists fighting tooth and nail. government clearly has no qualms about killing a few million to prevent competition.

[liberty_student]

@nazgulnarsil

I can imagine no plausible route between where we are now and a free-market without the statists fighting tooth and nail. government clearly has no qualms about killing a few million to prevent competition.

I think we all acknowledge that.

I agree with your concerns, but I don’t see this as hopeless. Perhaps hopeless in the next year, or 10 years. But not indefinitely.

Government only exists as a physical force because it first exists as an ideological force. We’re at the very front of this movement. Libertarian ideas are spreading virally, exponentially. Keep feeding the fires, and the chances of change without violence increase all of the time.

[nazgulnarsil]

I should probably elaborate. I don’t see this as hopeless in the real world because we have technology on our side. tech is the great equalizer, from the colt pistol to the internet. I see this as hopeless if humans were doing it on their own. I don’t think we’re going to up and save ourselves with a social movement. Rather I think the social movement will grow naturally as standards of living increase and larger numbers of people gain access to information technology.

I see no specific route between here and there because you can’t predict disruptive technology.

[Juan]

I should probably elaborate. I don’t see this as hopeless in the real world because we have technology on our side. tech is the great equalizer, from the colt pistol to the internet. I see this as hopeless if humans were doing it on their own.

You have it backwards. Technology is irrelevant. Or worse, it can be used to further totalitarianism. What matters is what ppl choose, not the ‘material productive forces’.

[nazgulnarsil]

I disagree. Technology directly influences how people make choices. Especially information technology and productivity efficiency technology. When people are barely getting by and ignorant they are eager for protection and the promises of the state.

[Juan]

That’s why the US is full of libertarians no ?

[Juan]

Or alternatively : the US population must be starving that’s why they don’t give a damn about freedom.

[John_Ess]

It’s just statements. It’s not even an argument.

Can you imagine guys reading that and being like “yeah man, right on! Our position is defended another day.”

It’s like this

Don’t go to the edge of water. There are sea monsters there. Sea monsters would never allow you across in a million years. It seems awesome to be able to travel the water. But we’re stuck with sea monsters. That’s just the way it is. That Water Travellers want to travel by water any time they want. These unbelievers in the sea monster diety want to abolish all precaution on the monster. So that we can’t even manage this problem! I’m not saying that traveling to the Americas would not be awesome. Or that it would suck. But we’re stuck on land forever.