Depends, where are the counter-economists reinvesting their wealth?
Junior, you need to slow down.
That is not what I wrote about Pape. I wrote that suicide bombing was a desperate response, not a for profit one. Nice try however. Not sure why you would accuse me of something I did not write.
Right, and Agorists do not have the same motivations as terrorists. Even though there is talk of organizing by cell, operating in the black market, with the aim of securing a political end, typically the overthrow of the government. Again, you don’t treat Agorism as life and death. I haven’t met one person who does. So drop the suicide bomber analogy, it’s flawed from the beginning, and works against your own argument by highlighting it’s weaknesses.
More lashing out. You have no idea how wealthy my family was or was not. You have no idea whether or not my parents sucked. Why so defensive? Losing the argument? Post more Batman pictures! They will help you w1n!
Here is the problem with agorists. I ask a very simple question and on the one hand you confirm my thinking is correct, (which is obvious in truth) but then try and reassert your previous flawed position. I said, one transaction and the effect on the state, I didn’t say anything about follow-on transactions or re-investing but this would still apply if the counter-economist made the same follow-on transactions. What you and your agorist friends don’t want to admit is that a counter-economic actor can make all the same transactions as an agorist without the ideology. This is what undermines the logic of the agorist strategy.
The failure of agorism is that it tries to say that having the agorist ideology does something special in the counter-economy that identical activity does not. Agorists say that no matter how much counter-economic activity there is it will never undermine the state but then throw out examples of black markets undermining the state.
Agorism says that the profit motive is not sufficient compared to the agorist ideology. The truth is…the profit motive is the only ideology that matters. By profit motive let me quote Gordon Gecko, “The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind.” It is in pursuit of our own self-interest that things are accomplished. It is not even possible to get everyone to agree on a particular course of action. Freedom at it’s heart is about individual decision making.
People have chosen the state because it solves problems for them, it creates a sense of order and structure. Society needs these type of things. What we who believe in freedom have to do is create the framework of a society that encompasses the ideas of free-will and voluntary consent and then the people will come all by themselves. They will come because they are pursuing their own self-interest not because they have to believe in a particular philosophy. We have to demonstrate that the institutions we create can fill the functions of a state without the coercion.
In short we must blaze the trail and the masses will follow. I don’t waste time trying to convince the masses to follow the Liberty Colony. I am only looking for a small number of people that believe in freedom and are willing to take action. What we create in the Liberty Colony will be the framework for a free society. The people will follow naturally. Not because they believe in me or even believe in freedom, but because they want better for themselves.
People asking for the military’s protection is a sign of desperation on their part, not the state. The state will in return ask for extra powers, and will get them.
Bottom line is, unless you start investing your agorist profits into a protection business, you will have zero impact on the future of the state and will just be one more smuggler with a bright future behind bars.
You do realize that it is the STATE that is commanding this, right?
Jesus Christ!
You’ve got to be kidding me? Did you really not do your homework on this?
It is what you implied. I am telling you that motivation is largely divided between ideology and profit.
It appears that you disagree with Pape anyways as he is quoted as saying,
What, do you think desparation comes out of nowhere? Srsly? Give me a break.
Not the same exact motivations no, that’s obvious and no one has stated it. However, they do possess the same type of motivations; moreover, Muslim freedom fighters were used as an example of ideology being a greater motivator than profit. It is iron clad, address it or admit it.
It’s not an analogy… Maybe that’s the problem?
I’m guessing that they probably aren’t. No offense to anyone, but I doubt it.That is not meant to imply that my family is better, I personally don’t care about the money, but it seems to piss you off.
Didn’t your parents pay for your college though? It appears that you’re implying they didn’t. Did you even go to college?
I thought not joining your cult was a plus.
Which one is that?
Except no economic action is static. I think you’re at the wrong institute if you’re going to call that out.
By the way, it is unlikely that a mere counter-economist will make the same adjustments and investments, but even if they did, given your analogy, the simple fact is the Agorist still produces more. Like I said, address the logic and the math; it was used with your example - a bad one, by the way - in mind after you cried about it for several pages.
You keep ignoring the psychology and that’s your problem. Ideology does do something special. Sorry, it’s a simple fact that you fail to observe.
You’re using self-interest in the most pathetically basic way. We’ve evolved from the use of self-interest as mere monetary profit and use it as the fulfillment of belonging to something with a goal.
IRA revolutionaries could have made much more money by pitting their head under the radar, but they didn’t. They fought imperialists and they won.
Why? Why would they do something that costs them monetary gains? Why would they be successful in it? According to you, they couldn’t and it never happened.
Yours is simply an example of willful blindness.
Most will, yes and profit is important, but that does not change the fact that ideology is a greater motivator for those Agorists that are devoted to the philosophy through more than just your pathetically basic notion of “greed.”
I’m sure everyone else ignored the cultic talking point, but notice this.
Who blazes a trail? Why do they blaze a trail? Could it be… ideology?!?
I think you just screwed yourself, Jimmy.
And the people are clamoring for it and voted Berlusconi back in precisely for that purpose. Bottom-line, the state’s power has increased if it can use the military for policing and people applaud it instead of opposing it.
I was responding to banned and it is the same question I asked of you, which you could not answer.
If the counter-economic actor is doing the same thing then it doesn’t matter. You can not show that one transaction is different than another. All you assert without proof is that agorists are more motivated than everybody else. It is not a given that agorists beliefs are more motivating than other beliefs. Your example of suicide bombers is illustrative of this very fact. The suicide bomber is not motivated by agorism but is more motivated than the agorists. So you can not categorically state that agorism is more motivating than everything else.
You have not shown what ideology does. And what ideology? If my ideology is to advance myself by making enormous profits then I could just as easily say my ideology trumps yours. All you can really say is that people who tend to believe strongly in something tend to have greater motivation to accomplish it. That does not mean that agorism beats the individual self-interest.
You should read the quote. It is not basic at all but describes that the single driving force in the world is the individuals own desire for more.
Nice evasion, lol.
Right, because voters = direct policy decision. [8-)]
People in Italia don’t applaud the police or the military though. The amount of people that trust politicians in Italia are almost zero and few support the government’s tax system anyways - being notorious for their ability to evade taxation.
I know no one in Italia that supports Berlusconi’s moves. Not only do they see it as absolutely ridiculous - Italian violent crime is very low - but they find it rather disturbing. I doubt it will last much longer and I doubt Berlusconi will return for another round.
And which one was that, Jimmy? To my knowledge, I’ve answered them all. I’m sorry if you’re too weak to understand though.
But he isn’t. No action ends in the market. Every action is connected to another action. This is the market process that people like Mises and Rothbard stressed.
They are though. In effect and followed investment.
No. That was the implication in your flawed example. I can’t help it if you suck at leading people into examples.
I wasn’t stating that. I was stating that ideology is a greater motivator than profit.
I sure as hell have.
Ask these guys,
That’s not an ideology. Read a dictionary.
Nice to see that you’re now countering your own arguments.
No, it was pathetically simplistic.
Self-interest =/= ONLY monetary profit.
The market process isn’t depend on an individuals ideology. Give me one example where an agorist will conduct a transaction in the counter-economy that a person in the counter-economy will not conduct. There isn’t one, a counter-economist could engage in all the exact same activity as an agorist without theagorist ideology. You can not provide any example that is contrary to this.
You can not provide one example.
What evidence is there that your agorist ideology is a greater motivator than the ideology of profit/self-interest?
i·de·ol·o·gy (d-l-j, d-)
n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
- The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
- A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.
I would say a belief that people are best served and the greatest good is achieved by a system that allows for people to maximize their well-being based on their own desires and self-interest. I think that qualifies as an ideology and it doesn’t require a belief in agorism. I would say that Mises would agree with my ideology in this instance and not yours.
The quote actually talks about a greed for life and knowledge as well and these aren’t based on monetary profit. People pursuing their own self-interest produces the optimal result, not a forced ideology.
An Agorist will not merely attempt to take the money from that transaction and re-enter the pink economy with his guilt following behind him.
For example, a friend of mine, who is an Agorist, uses the money he makes through pharm. transactions to expand trade ports. He uses trade ports because he has more motivation to stay out of areas populated by state thugs.
Contrast this to the example of another friend of mine who basically just uses the money he makes through the transactions to purchase hamburgers and the same pharm. transactions for himself.
I did not necessarily claim that, I claimed that there is no ideology of pure profit for the mere counter-economist. He makes his money and leaves. That’s it.
If he had an ideology that peaceful, free-markets were pareto optimal and he was using Agorism to reach this goal, then he woudl be an Agorist.
[8-)]
You’re using the graduated definition of self-interest, a different definition from what you were previously using.
Well he’s back for this round and stronger than ever, which means your agorism was pointless.
That’s funny.
Reminds me of a radio show where the guests were talking about how Dubya could get elected twice when nobody they knew voted for him either time.
They have a name for this tendency to surround one’s self with like minded people that slips my mind at the moment.
That’s pretty funny too.
So your argument is that your friend who is an agorist is more motivated to not get arrested than your friend who blows their cash on cheeseburgers and blow?
I’d be willing to bet that your agorist friend moves a lot more product than your cheeseburger loving friend so receives a direct utility from expanding a port (the ability to stay out of areas populated by state thugs) that is totally seperate from their desire to see the state fall away through selling pharm.
Suggesting that one friend’s action is the direct result of their agorist beliefs while the other’s isn’t is what one would call a non-sequitur in this particular case.
You’re a funny, funny man…
My Agorism wasn’t practiced in Italia yet.
They’re twins.
Or perhaps that people in the Mezzogiorno largely despise politicians from the north…
See you are discussing levels of productivity again. The first transaction of selling something is the same for both and has the same effect on the state. The follow-on transaction is a separate transaction. Your example still does not say that the counter-economic actor would not do the same follow-on transaction as your agorist friend. If one wanted to increase one’s profits which as you argue is the sole function of the counter-economic actor then they could just as easily re-invest their profits into further counter-economic activity, which is what happens all the time. You still have not shown why your agorist ideology creates a different effect let alone a superior effect than profit incentive. You have not demonstrated that an agorist will do things that the counter-economist will not.
By your definition the counter-economist takes action based on pure profit. What evidence is there that counter-economists are required to take their money and leave. Most counter-economists re-invest at least some portion of their profits back into their business which is what most businesses do in general. This is the natural self-interest that I think drives people. People engage in counter-economic activity to make money, and having made money they usually desire more so they grow the business. No agorist ideology required.
Nope, I used the complete quote the first time I talked about people being motivated by profit/self interest.