Agorism activity

[Niccolo]

@JimJones

So then the counter-economy doesn’t matter if all that is required is for people to stop sanctioning the state. Which is it Niccolo, either the counter-economy undermines the state or is it the spread of agorist philosophy? I can tell by your other posts that you apparently disagree with other agorists about what the role of the counter-economy is?

Are you suggesting that the counter-economy can only possess the principle of ideology or profit? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. False dichotomies.

The counter-economy is the mode by which Agorists spread the message of Agorism whilst adding every possible incentive to it and sustaining it through its own profit making venture - or in other words, the counter-economy is the absent-state market and the Agorists are the anti-state participants.

@JimJones

If the requirement of agorist success is now for people to abandon the state then what percentage of the people in the U.S. do you think you need? These questions keep coming up because you constantly are forced to change your arguement as each previous arguement is shown to flawed. Where are all the other agorists rushing to your defense…after all they are supposed to be the most motivated right?

What are you talking about? You couldn’t respond to the logic and math that I put forward, so you ignored it. If this means Agorism is flawed, then I have a new tactic to bring to Strategic Management classes this semester!

My arguments have not changed; they have stayed consistent. I think you’re just too limited to see connections. We’ve already established that you have problems with reading comprehension and cognition. It’s ok. Nothing to be ashamed of. Your genes are not your fault!

Other Agorists have not jumped on because, A. most of them are not in love with the Mises Institute, and B. only arses like me will figuratively - and literally - drag a mental midget out into the open. It’s a tough job, but someone has to do it.

@JimJones

So there is no number as far as achieving the agorist reality. Usually when people want to reach a goal they establish quantifiable results to measure progress. Are agorists serious about achieving this?

Oh man, this is precious. I feel like the lady from No Country for Old Men.

You just don’t get it do you?

Re-read what I said, here,

@Niccolò

Suppose the economy were 7/8 counter-economic. The fact that it is only 7/8 and not fully counter-economic shows that there is still a state. The purpose is to build an infrastructure to facilitate for the overthrow of the state. I used 1/3 as an arbitrary number because that seems like a likely scenario for which an effective enough protection syndicates would be capable of defending people from the state.

@JimJones

What percentage of people have to believe this ideology or do you expect 100% compliance?

Less than one million people should be ardent supporters of the revolution - these will be the formal Revolutionary Agorist Cadre.

The rest merely need be supportive, slightly supportive, or partially passive.

@JimJones

So let’s use a military analogy since you are the expert military tactician.

But I thought you were the one that took formal classes! Shit. We’re going to have problems in the LC!

@JimJones

You do not know the strength of your own numbers,

No, I know the strength of my numbers, but I am not representative of all Agorism.

Agorism is purposefully clandeistine.

@JimJones

you have no organization,

No. I do. A promotional organization and a cooperative.

@JimJones

no pre-determined goal,

… Are you fucking kidding me? That’s what this entire debate has been about. That I do have a pre-determined goal and that’s an important motivator.

@JimJones

you do not know where the battle is nor when it will take place and the fact that you do not have this information you deem as inconsequential…I wonder what Machiavelli would say.

Machiavelli would understand the situation.

[Nitroadict]

@liberty student

I don’t know how anyone reading this, and your comments, as their first introduction to Agorism, can possibly buy into what a load of malarkey it is.

As per my previous example, drug dealers may or may not have any interest in a free market society, but they do understand the profit motive, and actively disobey, disrupt and resist the state to accomplish their ideologically neutral objectives.

Meanwhile your so-called ideologically committed Agorists don’t actively and openly resist the state to conduct their counter-economic activity, which begs the question, does ideology defeat profit? Or in other words, is capitalism superior to all other ideologies?

Capitalism is not the same as the free-market, which does not endorse any specific economic system; to my knowledge, Agorism strives for a free-market, not capitalism.

I really don’t see how you can say Agorist’s aren’t activley & openly resisting the state to conduct counter-economic acitivty… are you intentionally ignoring the Phase’s of Agorism, and how in inital Phase’s, it might not be the wisest thing for an Agorist to run around, waving their arms, yelling they are conducting counter-economic activity (which to my knowledge, the state views as illegal), increasing (unecessarily, maybe) their chances of their activity to go noticed by the state?

What’s preventing the authorities from misinterpreting (either intentionally or unintentionally) Agorist’s as being drug-dealers / terrorists / child molesters, etc. etc., and use “going after them” as an example against things that Agorism does not obviously represent?

[liberty_student]

@Niccolò

I’m not refusing to collaborate with other Agorists or to give any information - in a secure location. This is not a secure location, ergo, I’m not going to do it. As for who teh cult leader is. Yes, anyone that plans to move a group of people, not to mention forcing them to pay, to one compound in the middle of nowhere - presumably - is a cult leader.

You haven’t been following his program then, because you are presenting half-truths and canards.

@Niccolò

An Agorist cannot be an Agorist unless he is conducting counter-economic activity.

Why not just say nothing? Because that is what that phrase amounts to. More nothing.

@Niccolò

Aw… Is this the result of your home problems, Libby? I think it’s cute.

I think it’s cute that your parents still feed and clothe you. Maybe one day you will grow wings and fly away. Or maybe, you will be forever a turkey.

[liberty_student]

@Nitroadict

Capitalism is not the same as the free-market, which does not endorse any specific economic system; to my knowledge, Agorism strives for a free-market, not capitalism.

Oh whatever. Not only is this not relevant to the discussion, I think it is crap. We all know that private property ownership is a key component of a free market. And that is how I am using the term capitalism. I’m not interested in playing word definition games with you, particularly since you recently made the comment that you’re now ready to abandon AnCap. How can someone who isn’t fighting for anything, tell me what words I should and should not use?

@Nitroadict

I really don’t see how you can say Agorist’s aren’t activley & openly resisting the state to conduct counter-economic acitivty… are you intentionally ignoring the Phase’s of Agorism, and how in inital Phase’s, it might not be the wisest thing for an Agorist to run around, waving their arms, yelling they are conducting counter-economic activity (which to my knowledge, the state views as illegal), increasing (unecessarily, maybe) their chances of their activity to go noticed by the state?

No, I am intentionally pointing out the punchless hypocrisy of Agorism. It’s so secret, you can never reach the next phase. It’s a self-defeating paradigm if your goal is to create a mass movement and undermine the state. Do you guys get it at all? That SEK3 got sidetracked once he had a kid? That these are battleplans from theoreticians, not men who lived them or had any pragmatic experience in implementing them?

Now the plan could certainly be improved, but everyone seems to be stuck on the “gee, I will make some trades and talk about Agorism, and maybe in 20 generations it will come to fruitition”. Just be honest about it. You’re not committed, 24/7/365 to Agorism, spreading the message, creating trade groups, establishing contact with other Agorists. You work on it if and when you get inspired, you might go weeks without making a trade, and your circle may not have grown in 2 years…

And it’s that sort of laissez-faire attitude that does not get things done.

@Nitroadict

What’s preventing the authorities from misinterpreting (either intentionally or unintentionally) Agorist’s as being drug-dealers / terrorists / child molesters, etc. etc., and use “going after them” as an example against things that Agorism does not obviously represent?

That’s my point. Agorists aren’t prepared to face the state, to make a stand, to be a martyr, to take chances and make sacrifices. And it won’t get any easier when you have a family of your own to care for.

But also, the drug dealers operate in the counter-economy for profit. And apparently, profit is a much greater motivator in the face of overwhelming odds, than ideology.

[Niccolo]

@liberty student

You haven’t been following his program then, because you are presenting half-truths and canards.

Why would I follow a cult?

Silly libby.

@liberty student

Why not just say nothing? Because that is what that phrase amounts to. More nothing.

Agorism is by definition counter-economic. This is not a “nothing phrase.”

@liberty student

I think it’s cute that your parents still feed and clothe you. Maybe one day you will grow wings and fly away. Or maybe, you will be forever a turkey.

Dear God. You are quite the jealous one, aren’t you? Harping on a parent issue with a college student is rather indicative of your education level. You take the internetz way to srsly.

So tense. I suggest your wife pull your pants down and start doing her job - unless my intuition is true that there are problems in the home. I think those intuitions are correct, by the way.

Perhaps spending too much time debating teenagers online?

[liberty_student]

@Niccolò

Why would I follow a cult?

Why do you keep calling it a cult? Your stated reason for doing so have already been proven to be lies.

@Niccolò

Agorism is by definition counter-economic. This is not a “nothing phrase.”

Drug dealing, by definition is counter-economic. Your point remains, NOTHING.

@Niccolò

Dear God.

It is funny when you begin another vulgar rant with the name of God. I see the Christianity runs deep in you.

@Niccolò

You are quite the jealous one, aren’t you? Harping on a parent issue with a college student is rather indicative of your education level. You take the internetz way to srsly.

I’m not taking it too seriously. You’re a hypocrite, who lives off his parents despite being of an age when men have long fended for themselves and their families. You claim to be a radical, but you pursue a state education. You challenge the credentials of people trying to make tangible gains, and yet you have nothing to show for youself.

I just enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of your positions and statements.

@Niccolò

So tense. I suggest your wife pull your pants down and start doing her job - unless my intuition is true that there are problems in the home. I think those intuitions are correct, by the way.

The inevitable vulgarity and personal attack. It’s really brilliant Nick. Anytime you might be gaining sympathy, you remind everyone that what I am posting is correct, and that you are an immature child, prone to lashing out when you cannot get your way.

[Maxliberty]

@liberty student

That’s my point. Agorists aren’t prepared to face the state, to make a stand, to be a martyr, to take chances and make sacrifices. And it won’t get any easier when you have a family of your own to care for.

When I originally created this thread it was to get some sense of what agorists are for, how they plan to implement their strategy and what they are doing.

My conclusion is as follows:

Agorists want to use the counter-economy to undermine the state but don’t think the current profit motive is sufficient motivation.

Agorists believe the agorist philsophy is the greatest possible motivator for the counter-economy but can provide no evidence of this.

Agorists believe that creating counter-state institutions is critical to achieving liberty after the state collapses but have not created any of these institutions or if they have they are either so small or so secretive that can not be found by anyone outside of some very small group.

Agorists have no idea how many others there are outside of their own small group.

There is no time-table for when any state is supposed to collapse as a result of agorism nor any specific goals for achieving this free society.

Agorism is based on some vague phases of implementation which do not have any specific goals either.

After 30 years of trying there is no identifiable progress anywhere.

The current leading agorists are either living with their parents or may start an underground t-shirt shop within the next few years.

Did I leave anything out?

[Niccolo]

@liberty student

Oh whatever. Not only is this not relevant to the discussion, I think it is crap. We all know that private property ownership is a key component of a free market. And that is how I am using the term capitalism. I’m not interested in playing word definition games with you, particularly since you recently made the comment that you’re now ready to abandon AnCap. How can someone who isn’t fighting for anything, tell me what words I should and should not use?

Because you’re using them incorrectly! As is every capitalist apologist here.

@liberty student

No, I am intentionally pointing out the punchless hypocrisy of Agorism. It’s so secret, you can never reach the next phase.

You do realize that secrecy on the internet - the place where so many have fallen prey to the Chris Hansens of the world =/= unsuccessful. Right?

Honestly, until someone gives you a social security number and their bank account you won’t stop harping will you?

@liberty student

It’s a self-defeating paradigm if your goal is to create a mass movement and undermine the state. Do you guys get it at all? That SEK3 got sidetracked once he had a kid? That these are battleplans from theoreticians, not men who lived them or had any pragmatic experience in implementing them?

Where’s Southern California again?

@liberty student

Now the plan could certainly be improved, but everyone seems to be stuck on the “gee, I will make some trades and talk about Agorism, and maybe in 20 generations it will come to fruitition”. Just be honest about it. You’re not committed, 24/7/365 to Agorism, spreading the message, creating trade groups, establishing contact with other Agorists. You work on it if and when you get inspired, you might go weeks without making a trade, and your circle may not have grown in 2 years…

And it’s that sort of laissez-faire attitude that does not get things done.

Horse shit. You’ve obviously not paid any attention to anything that’s been said in this thread. As far as I can tell though, your argument comes down to these two false premises:

1. Agorism is impractical - and impracticality cancels success!

2. I have a family, so I can’t participate in the counter-economy.

Seriously, if you actually read the New Libertarian Manifesto as many times as you claim you have, you’d have read this,

On the other hand, we must defend ourselves against the vested interests or at the very least lower their oppression as much as possible. If we eschew reformist activity as counter-productive, how will we achieve that?

One way is o bring more and more people into the counter-economy and lower the plunder available to the State. But evasion isn’t enough; how do we protect ourselves and even counter-attack?

Slowly but steadily we will move to the free society turning more counter- economists onto libertarianism and more libertarians onto counter-economics, finally integrating theory and practice. The counter-economy will grow and spread to the next step we saw in our trip backward, with an ever=-larger agorist sub-society embedded in the statist society. Some agorists may even condense into discernible districts and ghettos and predominate in islands or space colonies. At this point, the question of protection and defense will become important

Using our agorist model (Chapter 2), we can see how the protection industry must evolve. Firstly, why do people engage in counter-economics with no protection? the pay-off for the risk they take is greater than their expected loss. This statement is true, of course, for all economic activity, but for counter-economics it requires special emphasis:

The fundamental principle of counter-economics is to trade risk for profit. [9]

The higher the expected profit, the greater the risk taken. Note that if risk is lowered, a lot more would be attempted and accomplished - surely an indicator that a free society is wealthier than an unfree one.

Risk may be lowered by increasing care, precautions, security (locks and stashes), and by trusting fewer persons of higher trustworthiness. The last indicates a high preference for dealing with fellow agorist and a strong economic incentive binding an agorist sub-society and an incentive to recruit or support recruitment.

Counter-economic entrepreneurs have an incentive to provide better security devices, places of concealment, instructions to help evasion and screen potential customers and suppliers for other counter-economic entrepreneurs. And thus is the counter-economic protection industry born.

As it grows, it may begin insuring against “bursts,” lowering counter-economic risks further and accelerating counter-economic growth. Then it may provide lookouts and guarded areas of safekeeping with alarm systems and highly technological concealment mechanisms. Guards may be provided against real criminals (other than the State). Already many residential, business and even minority districts have private patrols, having given up on the State’s alleged protection of property.

Along the way the risk of contract-violation between counter-economic traders will be lowered by arbitration. Then the protection agencies will start providing contract enforcement between agorists, although the greatest “enforcer” in the early stages will be the State to which each can turn the other cone into. Yet that act would quickly result in one’s expulsion from the sub-society; so an internal enforcement mechanism will be valued.

In the final stages counter-economist transactions with statists will be enforceable by the protection agencies and the agorists protected against the criminality of the State. [10]

At this point we have reached the final step before the achievement of a libertarian society. Society is divided between large agorist areas inviolate and statist sectors. And we stand on the brink of Revolution.

You really are a joke, you know?

You get your thong in a knot every time someone responds to Rev. Jimmy and you attack college students for… being college students simply because of some pent up rage that you can’t take out because your wife ain’t given any and you’re stuck in a corner like the poor, pathetic, suburban schmuck you always said you’d never become. Get a fucking hobby or something. Start popping oxycontin. Take the edge off because the whole angry, mid-life crisis shit is annoying as hell. Or just die or something. LORD knows no one is going to miss you, especially not your precious family that you’ve given everything up to protect and take care of - oh… except for getting into flame wars with teenagers on an online forum.

That’s my point. Agorists aren’t prepared to face the state, to make a stand, to be a martyr, to take chances and make sacrifices. And it won’t get any easier when you have a family of your own to care for.

But also, the drug dealers operate in the counter-economy for profit. And apparently, profit is a much greater motivator in the face of overwhelming odds, than ideology.

[8-)]

You didn’t read his point about the phase nature of Agorism, did you?

[Niccolo]

@liberty student

Why do you keep calling it a cult? Your stated reason for doing so have already been proven to be lies.

So Jimmy doesn’t want to take people’s moneys and move them out to a compound in the middle of nowhere - presumably?

@liberty student

Drug dealing, by definition is counter-economic. Your point remains, NOTHING.

No, it means something because you contested otherwise.

@liberty student

It is funny when you begin another vulgar rant with the name of God. I see the Christianity runs deep in you.

I like the quote from There Will Be Blood. God doesn’t save stupid people.

@liberty student

I’m not taking it too seriously.

No. You really are.

@liberty student

You’re a hypocrite, who lives off his parents despite being of an age when men have long fended for themselves and their families.

I don’t see how being a teenager and using my parents’ money - which will, one day, be my money anyways - to persue the education they always wanted for me is hypocritical to fighting against the state, but ok.

Apparently the state = family too? Oh no! Don’t tell me you’re into Turtle-Head Molyneux!

@liberty student

You claim to be a radical, but you pursue a state education. You challenge the credentials of people trying to make tangible gains, and yet you have nothing to show for youself.

I just enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of your positions and statements.

Again, I’ll ask, what hypocrisy? I’ve given you examples of gains made. People being capable of trading in contraband and using contraband with a much smaller possibility of being caught and harassed by the state seems to be a very large gain compared to… asking people to join my cult is it? Or maybe just pulling a lever one day every four years?

@liberty student

The inevitable vulgarity and personal attack. It’s really brilliant Nick. Anytime you might be gaining sympathy, you remind everyone that what I am posting is correct, and that you are an immature child, prone to lashing out when you cannot get your way.

Nah. I just don’t like stupid people.

[liberty_student]

@Niccolò

You really are a joke, you know?

You get your thong in a knot every time someone responds to Rev. Jimmy and you attack college students for… being college students simply because of some pent up rage that you can’t take out because your wife ain’t given any and you’re stuck in a corner like the poor, pathetic, suburban *** you always said you’d never become. Get a fucking hobby or something. Start popping oxycontin. Take the edge off because the whole angry, mid-life crisis *** is annoying as hell. Or just die or something. LORD knows no one is going to miss you, especially not your precious family that you’ve given everything up to protect and take care of - oh… except for getting into flame wars with teenagers on an online forum.

To answer an earlier question, soliciting rage motivated responses as I have quoted above, is how I know I am winning an internet argument. When you continue to post vulgarities about my family, when you ask me to just “die or something”, etc. just further emphasizes your lack of substance, and your obvious immaturity.

I’m surprised Strike The Root posts articles attacking the productive class from angry young men who still live off of mommy and daddy. Really lowers my respect for that site.

[Niccolo]

@liberty student

To answer an earlier question, soliciting rage motivated responses as I have quoted above, is how I know I am winning an internet argument. When you continue to post vulgarities about my family, when you ask me to just “die or something”, etc. just further emphasizes your lack of substance, and your obvious immaturity.

I’m surprised Strike The Root posts articles attacking the productive class from angry young men who still live off of mommy and daddy. Really lowers my respect for that site.

And please, how does “lashing out” at you equate to “losing” an internet argument. Where is written in stone that using “vulgarity” means lacking substance?

I think the vulgarity is funny; you re-act to it, ergo, it makes this enjoyable for me. Please though, answer me this. It seems like even in answering a random question you need to resort to a logical fallacy or a sad cliche.

[Maxliberty]

@Niccolò

Are you suggesting that the counter-economy can only possess the principle of ideology or profit? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. False dichotomies.

No I am suggesting that the profit motive or individual self-interest has consistently demonstrated to be the superior motivator in human behavior. This is a point on which I and SEK3 agree.

@Niccolò

What are you talking about? You couldn’t respond to the logic and math that I put forward, so you ignored it. If this means Agorism is flawed, then I have a new tactic to bring to Strategic Management classes this semester!

Your logic and math is predicated on the assumption that agorists are more productive in the counter-economy than people solely motivated by profit. That is an assumption for which you can provide no evidence. In fact all of the existing evidence indicates that personal self-interest has been and will continue to be the driving factor of human behavior and not some overriding philosophy.

@Niccolò

Suppose the economy were 7/8 counter-economic. The fact that it is only 7/8 and not fully counter-economic shows that there is still a state. The purpose is to build an infrastructure to facilitate for the overthrow of the state. I used 1/3 as an arbitrary number because that seems like a likely scenario for which an effective enough protection syndicates would be capable of defending people from the state.

So is 1/3 an arbitrary number or a likely scenario? What infrastructure have the agorists created to facilitate the overthrow of the state?

@Niccolò

Less than one million people should be ardent supporters of the revolution - these will be the formal Revolutionary Agorist Cadre.

The rest merely need be supportive, slightly supportive, or partially passive.

So approximately one million hard core agorists are needed. I am assuming this is an actual number and not arbitrary and that this is based on the US population. So to expand to other areas we need roughly .3% of a given population to be hard core agorists to achieve the removal of the state. Then what % needs to fall into the category of supportive?

It is interesting that every time agorism comes under fire you throw out a new number. But we are making progress. See this is how things get done in the real world, by actually detailing what needs to be done.

@Niccolò

But I thought you were the one that took formal classes! . We’re going to have problems in the LC!

You were the one claiming to be the expert in military strategy. I just pointed out that I have had formal training and experience in this matter.

@Niccolò

… Are you fucking kidding me? That’s what this entire debate has been about. That I do have a pre-determined goal and that’s an important motivator.

Goals without quantifiable actions that can be taken can not be achieved. To say that the goal is to end the state but to have no plan how to achieve it does not accomplish it. It’s like saying you want to be rich but have no plan for making money.

@Niccolò

Machiavelli would understand the situation.

Yes, he would understand that with out plans you have no chance of success.

[Niccolo]

@JimJones

When I originally created this thread it was to get some sense of what agorists are for, how they plan to implement their strategy and what they are doing.

No you didn’t. You created this thread for the exact purpose of being hostile. Your hostility was met with hostility.

@JimJones

First post in the thread:

Agorism seems nothing more than an intellectual tap dance and to give solace to those not willing to take more direct action.

Who the hell adds that to a purely informational topic? At least get your head out of your arse.

@JimJones

My conclusion is as follows:

Agorists want to use the counter-economy to undermine the state but don’t think the current profit motive is sufficient motivation.

Agorists want to use the counter-economy to undermine the state, but think that profit motive alone is an insufficient objective.

@JimJones

Agorists believe the agorist philsophy is the greatest possible motivator for the counter-economy but can provide no evidence of this.

Libertarianism is an ideology. Ideology is a better motivator than profit.

Evidence: Suicide bombers. Maximized sacrifice with minimal profit. Answer to this simple example.

@JimJones

Agorists believe that creating counter-state institutions is critical to achieving liberty after the state collapses but have not created any of these institutions or if they have they are either so small or so secretive that can not be found by anyone outside of some very small group.

Agorism is a tactic based on phases. For most, the phase has not yet reached two.

@JimJones

There is no time-table for when any state is supposed to collapse as a result of agorism nor any specific goals for achieving this free society.

Nope. I think that’s good. Flexibility.

@JimJones

Agorism is based on some vague phases of implementation which do not have any specific goals either.

No, the goals have been specifically stated in the New Libertarian Manifesto. Have you read it yet? If not, I’d advise you to.

@JimJones

After 30 years of trying there is no identifiable progress anywhere.

I’ve given you several examples of identifiable progress in Milwaukee, for example.

@JimJones

The current leading agorists are either living with their parents or may start an underground t-shirt shop within the next few years.

Did I leave anything out?

Lol. I’m not actually living with my parents, but I’m flattered to be called a “leading Agorist,” I’m not, but I’m flattered.

[Maxliberty]

@Niccolò

So Jimmy doesn’t want to take people’s moneys and move them out to a compound in the middle of nowhere - presumably?

You should look at the site before you make claims about it. If there is something you don’t like you should quote it rather than make unsubstantiated claims.

[Niccolo]

@JimJones

No I am suggesting that the profit motive or individual self-interest has consistently demonstrated to be the superior motivator in human behavior. This is a point on which I and SEK3 agree.

I’ve seen no evidence that SEK3 stated monetary profit motives possess higher incentives, but if he did, he was wrong. It’s plain to see. Why did the VietCong fight so hard? For all those VCredits?

@JimJones

Your logic and math is predicated on the assumption that agorists are more productive in the counter-economy than people solely motivated by profit.

Nah uh, uh. It wasn’t my assumption, I was explaining what your assumption comes to.

If two farmers, homogenous in everything but ideology, work in the counter-economy, the one with extra incentive is going to work harder. The assumption is that both possess the incentive for profit, but only the Agorist possesses the incentive for ideology.

It was your example, wasn’t it?

@JimJones

That is an assumption for which you can provide no evidence. In fact all of the existing evidence indicates that personal self-interest has been and will continue to be the driving factor of human behavior and not some overriding philosophy.

Then explain why the IRA was successful in kicking out the British?

@JimJones

So is 1/3 an arbitrary number or a likely scenario? What infrastructure have the agorists created to facilitate the overthrow of the state?

Both.

Secured trade posts around the Milwaukee area.

@JimJones

So approximately one million hard core agorists are needed. I am assuming this is an actual number and not arbitrary and that this is based on the US population. So to expand to other areas we need roughly .3% of a given population to be hard core agorists to achieve the removal of the state. Then what % needs to fall into the category of supportive?

Less than one million. This would appear to be about three times larger than most militaries, in Italia the military is only 308,000 people. This is why I chose it.

I don’t know about supportive because they wouldn’t do any fighting.

@JimJones

It is interesting that every time agorism comes under fire you throw out a new number. But we are making progress. See this is how things get done in the real world, by actually detailing what needs to be done.

That’s not the way it’s done with clandestine cells.

@JimJones

You were the one claiming to be the expert in military strategy. I just pointed out that I have had formal training and experience in this matter.

I said expert?

@JimJones

Goals without quantifiable actions that can be taken can not be achieved. To say that the goal is to end the state but to have no plan how to achieve it does not accomplish it. It’s like saying you want to be rich but have no plan for making money.

First, it’s still a goal. Nice damage control though.

Second, a plan has been outlined. I’m sorry it’s not as bueracratic as a corporation though.

@JimJones

Yes, he would understand that with out plans you have no chance of success.

No. He’d understand that ideology trumps profit. HAH!

[Niccolo]

@JimJones

You should look at the site before you make claims about it. If there is something you don’t like you should quote it rather than make unsubstantiated claims.

That’s like saying you should have actually gone to Jonestown before you criticized it.

Look what happened there! No thanks, culty.

[wombatron]

@Maxliberty

Agorists want to use the counter-economy to undermine the state but don’t think the current profit motive is sufficient motivation.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. No, the profit motive is not sufficient motive for overthrowing the state, but that doesn’t follow from what you said.

@Maxliberty

Agorists believe the agorist philsophy is the greatest possible motivator for the counter-economy but can provide no evidence of this.

Again, ideology can and will trump the profit motive. This has been shown time and time again throughout history and the works of military strategists and political scientists.

@Maxliberty

Agorists believe that creating counter-state institutions is critical to achieving liberty after the state collapses but have not created any of these institutions or if they have they are either so small or so secretive that can not be found by anyone outside of some very small group.

These institutions are in there infancy. It would be premature to have an overt private defense agency when the state still has the upper hand. Most of the work being done right now is educational. I don’t see how secrecy is a problem right now, anyway.

@Maxliberty

Agorists have no idea how many others there are outside of their own small group.

Not true, and irrelevant. There are groups for agorists and allies all across the Net, many of which have true names and locations. Besides, knowing how many people are in your movement as a whole isn’t necessary. A cell-based strategy, for example. The analogy isn’t exact, but it holds.

@Maxliberty

There is no time-table for when any state is supposed to collapse as a result of agorism nor any specific goals for achieving this free society.

Premature for the first part and untrue for the second part. Read the NLM again. Besides, specific goals for overthrowing the state would probably not be published on a public website.

@Maxliberty

Agorism is based on some vague phases of implementation which do not have any specific goals either.

The phases aren’t “phases of implementation”, that specify exactly when specific strategies are to be executed; they are descriptive, not prescriptive.

@Maxliberty

After 30 years of trying there is no identifiable progress anywhere.

Examples have been given above, although they are probably hidden by all the personal attacks. Also, probably not details on a public website.

@Maxliberty

The current leading agorists are either living with their parents or may start an underground t-shirt shop within the next few years.

Competely untrue. The current leading agorists are building alliances with mutualists, geoists, and the radical Left, in addition to whatever counter-economic activities they are pursuing.

[Nitroadict]

@liberty student

Oh whatever. Not only is this not relevant to the discussion, I think it is crap. We all know that private property ownership is a key component of a free market. And that is how I am using the term capitalism. I’m not interested in playing word definition games with you, particularly since you recently made the comment that you’re now ready to abandon AnCap. How can someone who isn’t fighting for anything, tell me what words I should and should not use?

I was disagreeing with you, I wasn’t yelling at you that you aren’t being fair with certain definitions. Private property may be a key component of a free-market, but what is a free-market?

Would a truly free-market allow competing system’s, as long as they are not forced on other’s, to co-exist? Would you use coercion against those who practice a system that while you do not agree with, are not violating your practices within the free-market, or anyone else’s well being, for that matter? Would such a use of coercion be justified against those who do not believe in private property (yet do not force this belief onto others, & respect their ability to exercise private property), in order to preserve the “free-market”?

My disagreements & questions are legitimate, and I think it would be important to address the issue of private property being key for the free-market, & whether or not that would allow other’s who do not think so, but yet do not advocate coercion upon other’s who disagree, to co-exist with their own systems?

And what comment are you referring too? The one’s where I’ve disagreed with the term an-cap? Where I don’t think an-cap is valid term? I was never really anything in the first place, other than a student, but obviously I’m libertarian (without getting into specific labels or influences). If I “abandoned” an-cap, it would because I don’t think the term has any meaning anymore. You need a label for me? I’m sorry I don’t have one for you.

I’m doing what little I can for now, if it matters that much to you, and what I’m fighting for now is defining myself & defining my ethics, and somehow assimilating those to improve my current stance in the “legitimate” market / society so that I have some resources to work with towards aligning my life closer to my ethics. I do not recall personally attacking you for the way you live as if I were on some higher horse, so get off with it.

Don’t confuse me with Niccolo (or anyone else); leave me out of your personal fight with him. If staying out of it means not voicing my disagreements with you in this thread (any further), then so be it.

[banned]

@liberty student

But how could they calculate, when there are closet agorists everywhere? How do they know who is and is not an agorist, and thus what agorist activities may require an increase in supply or decrease in demand?

In a 0 demand market, how do you calculate? Oh wait…

@liberty student

Which makes developing a mass of Agorists to accomplish the endgame, somewhat self-defeating.

I agree that a mass of libertarians who aren’t market oriented would be self defeating, but then those people wouldn’t be agorists would they?

@liberty student

Perhaps I’m not explaining it well, but I’m fairly certain that what I am talking about is logically consistent.

Predictable. You’re always so sure of yourself, yet quickly claim others are stuck up or elitist when you misrepresent or misunderstand what they’ve said.

@liberty student

Nicky has an agorist trading group. But they stay under the radar, and he is not comfortable with sharing details for obvious reasons.

I have agorist wares I want to sell. I have a few customers, but Nicky’s network could provide a lot of new opportunities, not only in profit, but increasing the standard of living of both myself and my trade group, by having access to a broader range of goods and services.

But because we have to deal secretly, trade is not open (1) we may miss trade opportunities, and (2), competition is hindered because a potential market participant is unaware of the size of the market, the goods available in trade as well as the price, and whether that provides the opportunity to compete for profit.

I fail to see how this leads to a calculation problem. This leads to a lack of demand driven economic growth, not an inability to calculate. Perhapse you should refresh yourself on Mises’s critique of socialism.

@liberty student

Imagine going into store after store, looking for a product, say a broom, and none of the stores have signs, and none of the goods have advertised prices. And few if any of the storekeepers will share any information with you, certainly none about their own store.

In an agorist economy, the agorist business best able to advertise yet stay under the state’s radar is the one which will win out. The market will eventually solve such a problem.

@liberty student

Is that an efficient market?

No such thing. Markets tend towarde efficiency. But no, a 0 demand market is not efficient and suppliers would have to find a way of sustaining themselves in the lack of trade.

@liberty student

And is it capable of building a state toppling mass movement?

In my view, yes. The state is parasitic. Parasites die without a host, and without people to steal from, even in the lack of those people’s ability to trade, the state will fall. Hell, if millions of people started committing mass suicide, the state would fall. It’s about depriving the state of sustinance, not creating a thriving economy. The thriving economy is just a byproduct, and is nessesary in preventing the arise of a new state.

Is agorism capable of causing such a movement? I don’t see why not. People are not incapable of freely trading, even when there are risks.

@liberty student

ML wrote something interesting which I imagine would have gone ignored. He wants liberty in his lifetime. I’m sure he realizes it’s not guaranteed he can achieve it, but that is his goal and he is striving for it.

Well I hope he likes the kind of freedom he gets running a mini-state in africa.

@liberty student

Which makes me wonder, Banned, is liberty in your lifetime your goal?

My goal as far as what? What Intend to gain from my life? No.

[Maxliberty]

@Niccolò

That’s like saying you should have actually gone to Jonestown before you criticized it.

Look what happened there! No thanks, culty.

I was talking about the website.