Is debating statists a complete and utter waste of time?
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=78646&start=75
Am I doing something wrong here, or are most statists just utterly unwilling to use logic? Is there a more productive way I could be furthering the cause of liberty? Does debating people have any significant influence on their beliefs, or are people completely unwilling to recognize when they’re wrong?
I think the most important reason to debate is for other people to change their beliefs. I find that most of the time neither side will change their stances, but those looking at the debate from outside can make their own conclusions according to what was said.
As for a more productive way to further the cause of liberty, that is up to you to decide. Do what you think is best.
All debate, ultimately, is a waste of time (unless you just like to work for that sweet feeling of being right). No one’s mind has ever been changed by proving to him that his belief or opinion is wrong.
The Rev
For me, the time for debate is over…we need to find ways to dissolve the federal government.
I have suspicions that you may be fairly on-target, but how do you back up that statement?
By not backing it up. [;)]
The Rev
I have had my mind changed on many ideas through debate. One quick one I could think off the top of my head was my switch from minarchism to anarcho-capitalism.
Also Freiheit, I quickly read the first page of the thread you linked to, and it seems that there are many conflicting views about the word anarchism. This is one of the problems of the word is that it is corrupted in so many people’s minds to mean chaos, no laws, no protection, everyone killing everyone else. You can even see that one guy posting saying all anarchists are socialists, because it is the abolition of property rights. I will let you come to your own conclusions on where the problem occured here.
Debating is also very good at honing your own skills, because you can see where you went wrong, and correct it for next time.
Wrong. I have changed my belief/opinion because my original belief/opinion has been shown to be wrong through debate. Hence, this statement is wrong.
No, but I think there are better ways to spend your time.
If you want to debate statists…oto www.democraticunderground.com
there are alot of fools there.
Given at least a cursory glance at the thread I posted, do you think it’s worth it for me to continue in this specific discussion on that forum?
I really recommend Stefan Molyneux’s recent talk at the New Hampshire Liberty Forum
http://www.enigmacurry.com/tmp/Stefan_Molyneux_-_NH_Liberty_Forum_2009.wma
He describes how to cut through all the complicated arguments and win easier and in a concrete way most understand: asking if they’d use violence against you. Really recommended and very funny (including audience participation).
I would abandon it.
Now that would be an utter waste of time. [:P]
I did.
I got banned.
This is what I would call wasteful effort. These people are either totally dumb or hold fast to statist views. They can’t even perceive the government as an institution is flawed, so you’re starting off with extreme resistance. It’s a great way to waste your time and energy, shouting back and forth. It’s what the Truthers do. It’s pretty ineffective and polarizing.
What I like to do is find a discussion that is not about politics or philosophy. An economic discussion or a social issue. This is where you can inject a free market perspective. I do this on other forums where there are smart people and I get a lot of positive feedback for presenting a coherent position that most people don’t consider.
But I don’t shove, TAXES ARE THEFT, THE STATE IS CRIMINAL, VOTING IS IMMORAL, END WELFARE YESTERDAY at people. If you come at people like that, if someone with radically different views came at you like that, it would be a turnoff.
Any salesman will tell you two things.
First, qualify your lead. That means, find out of the ground is fertile for a “profitable” (mutual benefit) discussion. If it is not fertile, don’t waste your time. Your chances of success are poor before you have started.
Second, create curiosity. Give them enough to make them curious to hear more. This means you cannot smash them in the face with your ideology. Learn to seduce people to the point that they WANT to know what FRB is, or they WANT to know what natural rights are or they WANT to know how you can help the poor by removing welfare.
Some food for thought.
I agree with Liberty student…I guess it is a waste of time…its just so tempting sometimes…
its like this…the dumbest people need the most censorship…
I wasted time to get the required number of forum posts to start a new thread.
I went radical.
I was called a troll, and dismissed.
I apologized, tried to be less radical and more appreciative.
The mods cast banhammer, smashing my account.
I learned to be more considerate, questioning, and less radical.
Bowing to the nazis ? Is there any point in doing that ?
They are still human beings.
So ?