An-caps, STOP lying to yourself!

A nation, therefore, has no right to say to a province: You belong to me, I want to take you. A province consists of its inhabitants. If anybody has a right to be heard in this case it is these inhabitants. Boundary disputes should be settled by plebiscite. -Mises from Omnipotent Goverment, p90

No people and no part of a people shall be held against its will in a political association that it does not want. -Mises from Nation, State, and Economy, p34

Liberalism knows no conquests, no annexations; just as it is indifferent towards the state itself, so the problem of the size of the state is unimportant to it. It forces no one against his will into the structure of the state. Whoever wants to emigrate is not held back. When a part of the people of the state wants to drop out of the union, liberalism does not hinder it from doing so. Colonies that want to become independent need only do so. The nation as an organic entity can be neither increased nor reduced by changes in states; the world as a whole can neither win nor lose from them. -Mises from Nation, State, and Economy, p394

The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars. -Mises from Liberalism, p109

If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done. -Mises from Liberalism, p109

The situation of having to belong to a state to which one does not wish to belong is no less onerous if it is the result of an election than if one must endure it as the consequence of a military conquest. -Mises from Liberalism, p119

Like I said, that’s about as close to being an anarchist as one can get without calling yourself one.

There are certain things that some people today can do that they couldn’t 200 years ago. There are some things people aren’t allowed to do today that they could 200 years ago. Whether or not one is more or less free depends upon what group to which he belongs. It also depends upon which activies you prefer to do.

If one earns $100,000 per year, and watches about 40-50% go to the government, that is a serious problem. After all, the colonists revolted under about 5% in taxes.

Who is more free? If the mafia came to your store, and demanded 50% in protection money, what would you call that? Freedom? If a man earns $100,000 and only gets to keep $50,000, that’s a serious dent in his freedom. His standard of living is significantly lower than what it could have been.

Those have to do with capitalism, not statism. The reason the USA still has a high standard of living is because of the already existing capital. Otherwise, all the advances in this country will eventually regress.

The Miracle of Chile

Really? So if I robbed you and stole %40 of your income it would not justify a violent response? After all, it was only economic violence.

I have noticed that you have decided to stop saying that us libertarians need to use violence to achieve our goals. I’m glad that I was able to make progress with you.

@ got lucky

Every single one of the quotes you cited from Mises absolutely do not advocate anarchism — rather he advocates non-oppressive accountable government, but certainly not the elimination of the state.

Indeed, he frequently cites the state in his quotes believing that individuals should have the right to join or leave any state this choose – not the elimination of the state.

Your opinion that Mises was an anarchist is further debunked:

Liberalism differs radically from anarchism. It has nothing in common with the absurd illusions of the anarchists… Liberalism is not so foolish as to aim at the abolition of the state.-- mises, Omnipotent Government

Anarchists shallow-minded, dull, and suffer from illusions and self-deception. – mises, The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science, 98

Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. Liberalism, 36

There are people who call government an evil, although a necessary evil. However, what is needed in order to attain a definite end must not be called an evil … Government may even be called the most beneficial of all earthly institutions as without it no peaceful human cooperation, no civilization and no moral life would be possible. --mises, Economic Freedom and Interventionism

If one earns $100,000 per year, and watches about 40-50% go to the government, that is a serious problem. After all, the colonists revolted under about 5% in taxes.

Who is more free? If the mafia came to your store, and demanded 50% in protection money, what would you call that? Freedom? If a man earns $100,000 and only gets to keep $50,000, that’s a serious dent in his freedom. His standard of living is significantly lower than what it could have been.-- gotlucky

Please read my quotes. I have frequently stated that economic coercion by government has increased significantly since 1776 and needs to be addressed with an Economic Bill of Rights to complement our already sturdy political and civil Bill of Rights that has actually increased these freedoms since 1776 – and not just in the USA. The example of our Constitutional Federal Republic has spread from a mere single nation to over 100 nations, and over 50+ higher order liberal democracies that are utterly peaceful to one another.

And by citing Chile – do you advocate the establishment of an authoritarian government to promote capitalism !!!

If so, that would be ridiculous.

There are certain things that some people today can do that they couldn’t 200 years ago. There are some things people aren’t allowed to do today that they could 200 years ago. Whether or not one is more or less free depends upon what group to which he belongs. It also depends upon which activies you prefer to do. – got lucky

Omitting economic rights which I clearly covered as being in decline since 1776, hence the need for an economic Bill of Rights, please provide specifically what political and civil rights have declined since 1776 ?

Really? So if I robbed you and stole %40 of your income it would not justify a violent response? After all, it was only economic violence.

I have noticed that you have decided to stop saying that us libertarians need to use violence to achieve our goals. I’m glad that I was able to make progress with you. – gotlucky

Don’t get me wrong, violence would be justified and necessary if politicians and bureaucrats in Washington trampled on our Bill of Rights. However, as I have stated previously, economic coercion does not justify a violent response.

Indeed, I am being robbed of 40% of income or more.

IN addition, because of onerous regulations at the Federal, state, and local levels of government, I am not risking capital to invest in what normally would be a profitable business venture that I believe would benefit many Americans and create dozens of skilled white collar jobs in my community. Hence I am not going to spend 12-16 hours a day for many months to start-up a potentially viable enterprise when government has adopted an adversarial relationship with business.

I did not say that Mises advocated anarchism. My exact words were:

In other words, Mises was about as close to anarchism as you can get without calling himself one. At first glance, those quotes you provide would seem that Mises would hate the thought of anarcho-capitalism. However, you forget that during Mises’ life, anarchists were almost exclusively communists or something similar. There were a few individualist anarchists, but the term anarchists referred to communists. Reading the quotes you provide again:

Interestingly enough, even during the 1950’s, Murray Rothbard did not call himself an anarchist - because of the communist connotations. Here is a great essay by Murray Rothbard for you to read a little more about this.
As my quotes showed, Mises supported the idea that people could leave a state freely and form their own government. It is true that he was not an anarcho-capitalist, but unlimited secession is about as close as one can get…Hence the statement: Mises was essentially an anarchist.
I’m sorry, but I do not know what you consider to be a civil right versus an economic right. So I really cannot debate with you on this point until I understand the distinction you are trying to make. Do you consider eminent domain to be civil or economic? Do you consider the violations of the TSA to be civil or economic? Are marriage licenses civil or economic? Do you consider gun control to be civil or economic? Do you consider anti-discrimination laws (these are bad) to be civil or economic? Etc.

First, the USA is not a Constitutional Federal Republic. Consider it actually use to be plural, as in the USA are a etc., now USA is singular. The USA has a national government with local provinces. It was once a federation, but it is no longer. Most of these countries would be peaceful to one another if they were anarcho-capitalist. There would be no incentive for war. Now, these countries are under the hegemony of the USA.

The actual conversation was:

At no point do I advocate totalitarianism. I was just merely pointing out that Pinochet “sure knew how to get capitalism going without a liberal democracy”.

At what point would violence be justified? At 60% tax rate? 90%? 100%? How many of your civil rights have to be violated before you can justly respond with violence? Only if the government takes your house? If the government forbids you from marrying? What if you can’t fire one of your workers because he is a “protected” minority? Does that mean you can use violence then? How many civil rights before you can commit violence against the state?