An-caps, STOP lying to yourself!

1 & 2 are contained in 3 but the point is that 3 is not productive, it is parasitic. Let’s say Steve Jobs robbed a bank and that was the seed money with which he and the Woz started Apple. Could his future “productivity” justify his initial theft? Of course not. – clayton

If resources can be transferred from inefficient to productive capitalists then society will be much more dynamic and richer. It doesnt matter how the transfer occurs so long as the transaction costs are less than the expected gain from the acquistion. Moreover, the proof that they were mismanaging scarce resources was confirmed when the inefficient managers and owners lose this resource-- either through bankruptcy or prediation either way the resource is taken against their will. You must understand that it doesnt matter how an inefficient owner loses his mismanaged resources – what is important is that the free market allows for the transfer of resources from inefficient to efficient.

A society that allows inefficient managers and owners of scarce resources to retain this resources for aesthetic motives thereby denying its use to the marketplace is a society that will soon collapse when in competition with more dynamic economic-centric societies.

btw, where is your methodology ?!

But the aggression suffuses the entire enterprise and wholly delegitimizes it. --clayton

every single society on Earth has gained power by aggression. Yet precious few are considered illegitimate. Indeed, the only ideologues who reject the utility of armed force to obtain desired ends are anarchists who coincidently have never had a societal pot to piss in throughout human history.

INdeed, it is amusing when anarchists discount the utility of armed force to obtain desired ends - when this is precisely the mechanism by which these same clueless anarchists are denied their desired ends.

This is, in fact, precisely the State’s argument: that it builds our roads, maintains our power-lines, operates buses, and so on. But it is not a valid justification for the State’s employment of aggressive force. – Clayton

Well it may not be a valid justification, but it sure pays the bills and keeps you anarchists in your place. However statists use these schemes to maintain power despite the obvious economic waste and opportunity costs. IN contrast, capitalists in a society without government will be operating under economic realities, hence any armed force used will be motivated by and executed by entreprenuers making sound economic decisions

The organizing principle is the inherent harmoniousness of human action. From this principle of harmony flows the capacity of human beings to form legal systems, to produce specialized security services and engage in monetary calculation without central organization. – clayton

I am always amused by the anarchist fantasy that removing government and magically the same actors will instanteously become 'inherently harmonious’

Not true, as I have stated specialization of labor, economies of scale, and a desire by industry leaders to reduce the costs and risks associated with competition and this will lead to territorial cartels of armed force.

You seem to be persistently confusing harmoniousness with naivete. Harmoniousness is precisely the opposite of naivete. The lock on your front door is a part of the harmoniousness of human action. By obstructing free entry with an inexpensive technological device which threatens no one, can take no one’s wallet, can tax no one, etc. you have increased your security. No one had to tell you to do it just like no one has to tell you to eat. Merely by acting on your own, uncoordinated self-interest, you bought and installed the lock - which is the opposite of being naive. – clayton

Your ‘lock’ is irrelevant if the following conditions exist inside the house:

  1. the house will be plundered if a profit seeking actor or firm believes that acquiring the property can deliver a net profit relative to the transaction costs.

  2. the house is not available for peaceful exchange.

  3. the costs of voluntary exchange are greater than the costs associated with using force.

Finally, I can prove that your position is irrational and faith-based from the perspective of a true capitalist.

Answer this question:

If you could realize a significant profit by investing in a firm that specializes in taking resources by force, would you invest in this firm ?

And you claim to be Austrian?

Anyone could realize a significant profit by investing in a firm that speacializes in the taking resources by force, but will it happen?

You are mentally stuck into thinking that because x could y, then x will y. This is a logical fallacy in your reasoning that exists in almost all of your posts.

What about the transaction costs incurred by the disspossed; do they not exist?

If you asked a college student to have sex with you, but she did not allow you to because you were ugly, would you coerce her into having sex with you if you knew that you would not be caught and that she would not tell anyone about it?

If you asked a college student to have sex with you, but she did not allow you to because you were ugly, would you coerce her into having sex with you if you knew that you would not be caught and that she would not tell anyone about it? — daniel muffinburg

No, I’m not ugly and I have never had a problem getting laid. Moreover, I am more a capitalist than a lover.

As a result, I would enter into a business arrangement with her, charge you $100 for 5 minutes and split the proceeds with her.

Is that a yes or a no?

Thanks for telling me your business plan. I’ll pay her $50.01, which is more than she would have gotten by doing business with you, and you get nothing.

I don’t think anyone disputes that this is how the real world works. But I’m baffled by your distinction between the state of affairs in a “free market” versus something else. Coasean theory regarding efficient rules assumes nothing about the wider state of society and culture - transaction costs are just as determinative of Coasean-efficient rules in Soviet Russia, North Korea, Somalia or the United States.

Are we talking about what should the rules be or why the rules are what they are? You seem to constantly conflate the two.

Start with the first few chapters of Human Action and then we can talk. I’m not 100.0% in agreement with Mises, but pretty damn close, closer than Rothbard I think.

What the hell are you on about? Please quote me where “anarchists” (e.g. Mises, Hoppe, Rothbard, etc.) discount “the utility of armed force to obtain desired ends.” Please, I would love to see that quote.

You don’t see the inconsistency in your views that the State is inefficient but so are “anarchists” ideas about society (in some way or other, it’s genuinely difficult to tell what your point is)?

No, sociopaths will always be sociopaths. The difference is that if the pre-legal cultural foundation for law shifts healthier, more well-adapted views on what constitute good laws, the sociopaths who are currently controlling 90+% of the Earth’s wealth would be marginalized like all the other sociopaths who are generally either in prison, die young or piss-poor or both.

Hoppe has refuted this in many places. Armored transport carriers, for example, are extremely non-aggressive precisely because they are held fully legally liable for their actions. In a society where you can’t just pin a tin badge to your lapel and gain legal immunity for anything you do, security producers and insurers who insure against losses from crimes of aggression would tend to be extremely hesitant to use force and would tend to refuse to take on customers who are not also extremely hesitant to use force.

Of course not.

What the hell does that rebut??

Clayton -

If you could realize a significant profit by investing in a firm that specializes in taking resources by force, would you invest in this firm ? – Centinel

Of course not.-- Clayton

the sociopaths who are currently controlling 90+% of the Earth’s wealth would be marginalized like all the other sociopaths who are generally either in prison, die young or piss-poor or both. – Clayton

These quotes pretty much sum up the illogic and irrationality of anarchist dogma.

clayton claims that sociopaths control 90% of societal wealth ?!!

I think most rational, independent thinking and objective non-anarchists see the illogic in this statement ?

1st, people are advanced social beings, hence it would be impossible for a sociopath or any other defective system or people to be able to exert that much control over a highly dependent and integrated social structure… unless (see #4)

2nd, whatever you call these ideologues, even the faith-based anarchist rabble acknowledge that whatever these so called ‘sociopaths’ are doing is successful. NOte I am not claiming that the ends of statism are beneficial simply it appears that the means they are using are successful at allowing them to gain power.

3rd in contrast, whatever you call anarchists, even this faith-based rabble will acknowledge that whatever they are doing is unsuccessful. They can’t be happy with the current state of affairs in the world based on a cursory examination of their dogma.

4th, Hence it is easy for any objective analyst to see that a demonstrably ineffective and corrupt system can be empowered simply by armed force. Moreover, this is not irrational by any means – indeed it is more irrational to reject armed force of any kind and allow yourself, family, community, faith, et al to be subjugated by a demostrably inferior culture (statism).

Essentially, anarchists like clayton reject (for faith-based reasons) a demonstrably effective means to gain and hold power and condemn themselves to eternity under the thumb of an inferior system (statism).

And they wonder why they are in the minority.

I’ll pay her $50.01, which is more than she would have gotten by doing business with you, and you get nothing. – Daniel Muffinburg

Glad we resolved that you have to pay for sex.

Now we are just haggling over the price.

“And you claim to be Austrian?”

The process that he was talking about is about as austrian as you can (see Mises’ “consumer’s democracy”) get and is axiomatically the tendancy that will prevail on a free market, as well as being definitively true from the standpoint of a consumer.

Centinel, are you a capitalist?

The process that he was talking about is about as austrian as you can (see Mises’ “consumer’s democracy”) get and is axiomatically the tendancy that will prevail on a free market, as well as being definitively true from the standpoint of a consumer. --Neodoxy

Statists don’t give a rat’s ass what Mises’ opinion is on empowering consumers. Your basing your argument on a demonstrably failed theoretical argument. It makes sense in theory, but in practice it doesn’t work dude, it never has.

By definition, statists can’t gain and hold power by voluntary or non-coercive means so…

They turn to a very effective means to gain and hold power, armed force.

Essentially, you are proposing a rule book for society based on merit, fair play, peace, cooperation while clueless to the fact that many players in your game can’t succeed at the level they desired under this rulebook so…

They cheat ! Yeah, I no you can beleive it, but folks that cant succeed by legitimate means, actually will cheat. Of course, the ancap never cheats, so he loses his chips everytime he plays and is left shaking his head in confusion “the odds are always in my favor (see Mises’ ‘consumer democracy’), how could I lose (see Machiavelli’s The Prince) ?”

They turn to a very effective means to gain and hold power, armed force.

It doesn’t get any more simple than that, yet anarchists on this forum are clouding their intellectual waters with theoretical minutia and ‘why is there air?’ pseudo-intellectual pondering while statists are running roughshod over us.

That is why Ron Paul should never be allowed anywhere near Pennsylvania ave. The dude is well intentioned and theoretically sound – but he misses a fundamental and critical point politics whether domestic or geopoltical is neither based on good intentions or sound theoretical economics. This ‘nice guy’ has been in Washington for over 30 years and hasnt accomplished a darn thing except cash some pretty hefty taxpayer funded checks for himself. Oh yeah, I believe he did have a statue built in downtown Galveston for something, although I cant remember what it was for.

Politics is based on power, Power is based on politics – and Ron Paul (and anarchists for that matter) dont have a clue how to wield either one.

When you ancaps figure that out, you will be closer to realizing your goal of a private-property society – however, it aint going to be pretty and it aint going to be peaceful.

Hence, I favor the closes thing to it. A Constitutional Federal Republic with an Economic Bill of RIghts added to our current civl and political Bill of Rights.

Centinel, are you a capitalist? – z1235

Dude, I am what I need to be to get what I want.

If I am with a hot chick that looks like Megan Fox and she’s a friggin Marxist, then I am to the Left of Nancy Pelosi.

If I am at a union meeting with a bunch of teamsters and they ask me what my opinion is on economics, then I am a friggin Ed Schulz listener.

If I am at a biker bar in Bikini BOttom and some biker gang asks me if I’m a goofy goober, I lie and tell them 'Hell no!"

However when I’m not trying to get laid, get paid, or keep my teeth, do I think that capitalism is a more productive, peaceful, stable and free system known to manking ?

Yes, with a caveat.

that institutionalized structures be put in place to undermine the ability of statists to gain power by coercive means — namely a Constitutional Federal Republic that decentralized, limits, balances, and makes transparent the elements of armed force in society.

Do I think our present system adequatly accomplishes this end?

No

Do I favor gutting it for a demonstrably failed anarchist system.

absolutely no.

Do I think we need to severely attentuate government power in the economic sphere?

Hell yes. We need an economic Bill Of Rights to complement our already sturdy political and civil Bill of Rights and that takes the power out of the hands of politicians and their cronies in the private and public sector and puts it into the hands of consumers.

DOes that answer your question?

How many people did you beat up (and took their wallets) on the street last week?

@z1235

I think I know where you are going with this, so lets not waste bandwidth tip-toeing around the issue.

I’m not the problem. I’m not a statist.

You can’t base your societal framework on dudes like me. Not everyone can be good lookin, athletic, personable, energetic, intelligent and humble.

okay, maybe not humble.

nonetheless, mOst people are just trying to get by with what cards they were dealt with. Many have a pair of ducks.

Hence, they cant succeed relative to their peers by following societal rules of voluntary and peacful exchange.

Indeed, in the minute that it took me to write this post at least 5 people in the USA alone were raped, murdered, robbed, or beaten.

Imagine the numbers worldwide!

IN sum, your theoretical framework based on the fallacy that all humans are motivated by the same goals and means is not supported by one shred of logic, fact or empirical evidence.

What other cards can they possibly use? Did I miss the news of a new magic cure for ugliness?

Absurd - just go out and do it.

So what? What does that have to do with anything?

You’re right. Some people really are motivated to seek pain and eschew pleasure. And here I thought Mises was right that all humans seek pleasure and eschew pain. Silly me.

Clayton -

I can’t believe I have to explain this, wait, it’s Centinel: Will =/= have to.

For your benefit:

In the context that he made that statement, it was an interpersonal utility comparison.

Centinel, you are the Barry Sanders of dodging questions; you are able to juke every question that will end you run, but you will never win the Super Bowl.

I noticed that you didn’t answer my question. How many people did you beat up (and took their wallets) on the street last week?