Animal Liberation

@autolykos

Pain is physical, hurt is subjective. A kid getting a shot freaks out because subjectively, the pain is immense. They’ve never experienced it before. In this sense, I’m sure all animals, including humans, would freak out if they were getting slaughtered. Having never had one’s throat slit is pain that would certainly hurt while getting a shot only hurts in the slightest bit now vs. when we were kids.

To assume animals don’t hurt is really false. Pain is a motivator, and sentient beings hurt with pain. But, like you said, the degrees are completely different. In fact, sentient beings can hurt in a way plants can’t, which is emotionally. Ever hurt when someone dies? Why do you think some dogs whine when their owners leave or whimper when they see their owner getting hurt by someone? They understand pain and hurt.

I know you haven’t suggested this, but for anyone who claims only humans can truly hurt from pain or that pain only matters with humans and not other animals is false. Monkeys, dolphins, cows, et cetera know what’s looming when they are getting ready to be slaughtered, and they shudder in fear of pain. They feel it just as readily as we do, too. If anyone thinks otherwise, prove it. We have no reason to doubt that their nervous system is less responsive than our own. Again, I’m not speaking of plant life; only animal life.

I have to agree with Brutus here insofar as there doesn’t seem to be a reason to deny that a dog experiences suffering, when it shows all sorts of outward signs that we instinctively (and on the model of our own consciousness) interpret as signs of hurting. If we doubt that the dog is really hurting, we are pretty darn close to doubting that other humans really hurt. Because after all we only think other humans hurt because of outward signs they show that we instinctively, and on the model of our own consciousness, interpret as hurting.

Brutus,

We can’t ever know that other beings feel pain. These signs your pointing out may or may not be an indication of pain, but you can’t prove it. I can’t prove you feel pain or anyone but myself does. There’s no way for me, or you, or anyone else to know how we experience sensations. So seeing as how I can’t prove that any person feels pain or the same bundle of sensations that I do, trying to do so for animals seems absurd.

OP,

Like many others here, I draw the line at sapience. Rights are intellectual concepts and come about through reason. Animals cannot conceptualize or apply rights, therefore they do not have them.

If you don’t accept that argument, naturally speaking, we’re made to consume other animals; so is that not justification enough? You said earlier you can’t hold a wolf responsible for eating a sheep, so how you can hold a person responsible when it’s natural? If you try to say our intelligence or our intellectual capacities gives a duty or some such, go back to point one. So either you support what’s natural (Killing and consuming animals), or you say our reasoning abilities give us an exception in which case we’re brought back to the point that we can conceptualize rights and animals can’t.

Nutrionally, eating meat is better for you.

Rights are legal concepts. WIthin a body of law, rights exist. I would agree with the idea that there is no evidence for objective and natural rights. But they are a part of legal practice and they are how most societies choose to characterize ownership and permissible actions.

He was inquiring about my own body of law.

Why do humans have canines?

To eat meat.

@Aristippus

“How does it create more material abundance? An animal does not create and trade with other animals or humans.”

If you read the preceding sentence, you would see that was was referring to the extension of the non-aggression principle among humans.

“I agree. They do not have ‘rights’. Nobody has such mystical things.”

As you see, I talked about extending rights to the elderly and the handicapped. Clearly, I wasn’t talking about natural rights, but legal rights. Rights are, as I’ve pointed out, social constructs and define what is and isn’t legally acceptable to do other people, or animals. There is nothing “mythical” about rights.

Would you agree that the argument you used can also be used to argue that there should be no legal consequences of torturing mentally handicapped, the elderly or coma patients?

@Zephyr

“Like many others here, I draw the line at sapience. Rights are intellectual concepts and come about through reason. Animals cannot conceptualize or apply rights, therefore they do not have them.”

Does this mean you don’t want to offer legal protection for young children, the mentally handicapped or people in a coma?

Additionally, it is interesting to point out that while early humans (of the Australopithecus varieties) appear to have been meat eaters from a pretty early stage, they were at that point first and foremost scavangers, which means that while they could be argued to be “made to eat meat”, it does not follow that they were “made to kill other animals”.

"If you read the preceding sentence, you would see that was was referring to the extension of the non-aggression principle among humans. "

So where was the argument justifying animal rights then?

“Would you agree that the argument you used can also be used to argue that there should be no legal consequences of torturing mentally handicapped, the elderly or coma patients?”

It depends on the particular situation. If one is unable to make any provisions for such legal consequences (e.g. having some kind of agency of protection), then if there are to be any legal consequences they must be initiated solely by a third party. This is then the same relation between somebody ‘torturing’ another’s property. Whether or not this is legitimate depends on the agreement of both parties, since they are both intending to use the property in a way that is incompatible with the other’s use. If there is a disagreement, then the action is illegitimate in that it is not considered legitimate by all of the involved parties. The legimitate state is therefore the one that existed prior to the use of the illegitimate action. In other words, if you take my cow, you are acting illegitimately.

@Aristippus

“So where was the argument justifying animal rights then?”

It is in that very post, which you quoted! I made my argument in that post using a chain of reasoning. You can’t just extract one single sentence from a whole argument and say “this is not a valid argument”. It is not a valid argument precisely because it is only a part of the argument.

“It depends on the particular situation. If one is unable to make any provisions for such legal consequences (e.g. having some kind of agency of protection), then if there are to be any legal consequences they must be initiated solely by a third party. This is then the same relation between somebody ‘torturing’ another’s property. Whether or not this is legitimate depends on the agreement of both parties, since they are both intending to use the property in a way that is incompatible with the other’s use. If there is a disagreement, then the action is illegitimate in that it is not considered legitimate by all of the involved parties. The legimitate state is therefore the one that existed prior to the use of the illegitimate action. In other words, if you take my cow, you are acting illegitimately.”

Just so I understand what you are saying, mentally handicapped people, the elderly and coma patients are the property of someone else? These groups should be granted no legal rights, and what you can and can’t do to them is solely a matter of “property rights”? Does this imply that the owner of a child or a mentally retarded person should be legally permitted to rape and torture it’s “property”?

I had a look at the post again, and there was no argument. All you said was that it costs less than it used to. So do computers, but I’m only going to buy one if I get something out of it. What opportunity for greater gain (i.e. greater psychic profit) results from animal rights that is more than their cost?

As for the second part: yes, those who cannot be held responsible for their actions can only be treated as property in the eyes of the law. This is very much a lifeboat situation, however - the combination of mentally handicapped person and abusive guardian is extremely uncommon compared to the number of people living. Children very rarely fall into the category of property.

“I had a look at the post again, and there was no argument. All you said was that it costs less than it used to. So do computers, but I’m only going to buy one if I get something out of it. What opportunity for greater gain (i.e. greater psychic profit) results from animal rights that is more than their cost?”

As you saw, I made no argument about animal rights generating material wealth. The question of what “greater psychic profit” can reult from animal rights is a very strange question to ask on a forum dedicated to Austrian economics. You can’t speak of psychic profit in general terms, at it is by definition personal. Everyone derives utility from different things, and we simply know nothing about what a particular individual values and why. It is, however, not hard to see what psychic profit could be derived from animal rights. The same psychic profit you get out of not hitting your children. You can sleep better at night, knowing that animals suffer less. I am not saying everyone will value this. What I am saying is that I consider animal rights to be a step towards a more civilized society, socially.

Now tell me this. What psychic profit would a slave owner derive from releasing his slaves? In general, most slave owners would suffer a psychic loss. Otherwise they wouldn’t have owned slaves in the first place. But we still consider a system of free men to be civilized than a system of slavery, on ethical grounds. I argue that I consider the same to be true for a system where animal suffering is minimized as opposed to one which is legally indifferent towards animal suffering. Even if a system of slavery would create greater material wealth for the slave owners, one can still argue against it on ethical grounds. Same is true for animal torture. This is the problem of ethical utilitarianism. It has no principles or values (well, it does when it attempts to actually justify how their system yields “more utility”, which is of course impossible) and can thus be used to argue in favor of all sorts of absurd mistreatment of humans and animals alike.

Second part: No, the combination of mentally handicapped people and abusive guardian is not at all uncommon. Sure, if you say “there are six billion people in the world, so who cares what people do to those who are lefthanded, they are just a small minority”, but is that really a basis for a sound moral philosophy? The will of the masses trumps the will of the few? Who cares if I torture and kill John Whateverson? He is only one person. There are 6 billion people out there!! I just find it hard to grasp why anyone would choose to defend the legality of torture and rape of the mentally handicapped.

“The question of what “greater psychic profit” can reult from animal rights is a very strange question to ask on a forum dedicated to Austrian economics.”

No it isn’t - this is what Austrians mean when they talk about profit in general (it is a different concept to monetary profit). Have you read any Austrians??

“What I am saying is that I consider animal rights to be a step towards a more civilized society, socially.”

I consider it a step towards barbarism, slavery, and poverty.

“What psychic profit would a slave owner derive from releasing his slaves?”

If he understood economics, he would know that owning slaves are making him poorer in the long-run. If his time-preference was low enough, he would release his slaves. Historically, slave-owners were deficient in at least one of these two conditions (probably both).

“In general, most slave owners would suffer a psychic loss.”

Incorrect, or else all of them would not keep doing the same action over and over unless forced.

“one can still argue against it on ethical grounds.”

100% arbitrary.

“This is the problem of ethical utilitarianism. It has no principles or values (well, it does when it attempts to actually justify how their system yields “more utility”, which is of course impossible) and can thus be used to argue in favor of all sorts of absurd mistreatment of humans and animals alike.”

Please read Hazlitt, the Foundations of Morality. You are grossly incorrect.

Ultimately your entire argument is derived from arbitrary emotions. You have given no reasons as to why I should submit to the same emotions.

“No it isn’t - this is what Austrians mean when they talk about profit in general (it is a different concept to monetary profit). Have you read any Austrians??”

You completely missed my point. I am fully aware of the difference between monetary and psychic profit. If you had read the following sentences (containing a couple of spelling errors, but the argument is still clear), you would have seen that I wasn’t objecting to the concept of psychic profit, but to the way you speak about it in general terms. (A yields higher psychic profit, but B doesn’t.) Do you ever read full posts, or do you just jump randomly between sentences?

“I consider it a step towards barbarism, slavery, and poverty.”

How is it barbaric to treat animals humanely? To voluntarily agree not to harm animals unnecessarily much? How is it slavery?

“If he understood economics, he would know that owning slaves are making him poorer in the long-run. If his time-preference was low enough, he would release his slaves. Historically, slave-owners were deficient in at least one of these two conditions (probably both).”

How can you make value statements regarding other people’s preferences. Saying a person’s time preference isn’t low enough is like saying there is some sort of “correct time preference”, which people should have. His time preference is simply what it is, it is neither right nor wrong. Neither too high or too low. It is simply his preference. And he held slaves because he derived psychic profit from holding slaves. Consider this scenario. Person A has nothing but a gun and a field. He has no money to hire people to plant crops on his fields. However, he does have his gun. So he can force people to work on his field by threatening to shoot them if they don’t. Are you telling me someone who has no moral problems with aggressive violence would still benefit from not forcing people to work for him? How?

“Incorrect, or else all of them would not keep doing the same action over and over unless forced.”

What action are you referring to here?

"Please read Hazlitt, the Foundations of Morality. You are grossly incorrect.

Ultimately your entire argument is derived from arbitrary emotions. You have given no reasons as to why I should submit to the same emotions."

Are you really serious about this? Every value judgement is completely arbitrary. We can always say that A causes B, so if we want B, we can employ A. But we can NEVER say that B is good or preferable to something else, or worth employing A to attain. Without making arbitrary value judgement, you can never evaluate anything. Your definition of civilization - that the wealthier we are the more civilized we are - is just as arbitrary as my use of how peaceful a society is as a measure of how civilized it is. You say that something is good because it produces more wealth for a certain group of your choice. It is not wrong to hold such opinions. Such as using the welfare of the albino population as a measure of how civilized we are. It is not wrong, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that it isn’t a completely arbitrary measure of how good or civilized a society is.

Now I haven’t read the Foundations of Morality, so if you could give me the jist of the argument here, that would be great.

If you hold wealth creation or utilitymaximization as a standard for how civilized any activity is without specifying for whom wealth is to be created, then robbery and theft can clearly be seen as civilized.

“You completely missed my point.”

What I said was completely pertinent.

“Saying a person’s time preference isn’t low enough is like saying there is some sort of “correct time preference”, which people should have.”

Obviously I meant low enough for him to not engage in slavery. There is no value judgement there.

“How is it slavery?”

Since one must aggress in order to prevent people from hunting, farming etc. That is by definition barbaric.

“What action are you referring to here?”

Forcing slaves to do whatever.

“Every value judgement is completely arbitrary.”

Obviously - my point is that your ideas on animal rights conflict with almost all people’s ultimate ends - hence why animal rights don’t exist as you’d like them to. That it also conflicts with my ends is why it isn’t good. Do you really think that I would say your ethics are arbitrary and not realise that all of them are? The origin and goal of ethics is eudaimonia - it just so happens that, at least for me, the ethic that allows me to achieve this is refraining from aggression against other people. If yours is murdering anyone who kills an animal, so be it - but it greatly conflicts with mine and so I will oppose anyone who does such a thing and hope for their death.

Single-celled organisms will also “freak out” when subjected to stimuli which they interpret as painful. It would seem that they can hurt as well.

I hope you’re not asserting that I made that assumption, because I didn’t. What I was questioning was you distinguishing between “pain” and “hurt”, because I didn’t see what distinction you were making between them. Now I think I do - you’re taking “pain” to mean the stimulus and “hurt” to mean the avoidant response to it. Thanks for the clarification.

Plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. may not have nervous systems like (multicellular) animals do, but that doesn’t mean they can’t respond to stimuli.

What you wrote is true, but it is not a criticism of what I wrote as I never claimed or even implied the opposite.

Which would then recognize the fact that slave ownership may be the psychic profit maximizing decision to make. As opposed to what you earlier tried to argue.

  1. This statement is clearly false. You obviously didn’t read my initial post where I explain how animal rights could, and probably would, develop voluntarily in a free stateless society.

  2. How is it barbaric by definition? I thought it was barbaric by implication, because aggressing on other humans produces less material (or psychic) wealth for some arbitrarily chosen group. Because what you so far have been doing is arguing that the extent to which the non-aggression principle is employed is not a measure of how civilized a society is, and that aggression in some cases is more civilized than non-aggression.

Let me reconstruct the full chain of discussion.

“In general, most slave owners would suffer a psychic loss by releasing their slaves, assuming indifference towards human suffering”. “Incorrect, or else all of them would not keep forcing slaves to do things over and over unless forced.”

I fail to see how this makes sense. I must be misinterpreting what you are writing, because to me it seems like you are saying that “slave owners would not reduce psychic profit by releasing their slaves, or else they wouldn’t keep owning slaves”. Maybe you could point out where the misunderstanding lies, because such a statement is clearly contrary to all logic.

I realize that this is true. Same is true for all other libertarian values. Most people want government violence and oppression in their lives, and that’s why a free society doesn’t exist like I’d like it to. This, however, is merely pointing out the current state of world affairs. It is not and argument against the ultimate end per se. If it were, then there would be no point in discussing political or moral philosophy at all, as all that matters is what we have today.

First of all, I have to stress that the goal of your ethics is eudaemonia, because you are a utilitarian. It is not the general goal of ethics as a concept.

Secondly, the fact that you think what I suggest is murdering or even aggressing against people who kill animals shows that you haven’t read the things I wrote in this thread. Or you read it and purposely chose to attack a strawman instead. Please, go back and read what I actually wrote instead of guessing what my views are. And if you did read my posts in this thread, please stop trying to put words in my mouth and trying to make it appear like I hold views which I have never expressed.

It could however be the case, and this is both likely and forgiveable, that you read my argument but simply didn’t understand it due to unfamiliarity with anarcho-capitalist legal theory.

Regardless, the quoted paragraph above contains false statements and has to be corrected before being used as an argument

I think you’re taking some of my criticisms too personally - notice for a lot of things I say ‘If x, then y’ - if x doesn’t apply to you, then neither does y.

“Which would then recognize the fact that slave ownership may be the psychic profit maximizing decision to make. As opposed to what you earlier tried to argue.”

Nope, it isn’t opposed to it at all. It may be depending on their time preference. They may think it is but are incorrect.

“I fail to see how this makes sense. I must be misinterpreting what you are writing, because to me it seems like you are saying that “slave owners would not reduce psychic profit by releasing their slaves, or else they wouldn’t keep owning slaves”. Maybe you could point out where the misunderstanding lies, because such a statement is clearly contrary to all logic.”

I looked back at it all and I think I put the wrong quote in for that.

“First of all, I have to stress that the goal of your ethics is eudaemonia, because you are a utilitarian. It is not the general goal of ethics as a concept.”

Yes it is - it aims at what should be. What should be is the best possible existence = eudaimonia.

“It could however be the case, and this is both likely and forgiveable, that you read my argument but simply didn’t understand it due to unfamiliarity with anarcho-capitalist legal theory.”

Lol nice try. I read back over your original post and it ultimately comes down to this - you’re relying on people to adopt a new religion with particular taboos that are enforced with aggression. That’s pretty much it. It really has nothing to do with anarcho-capitalist law and everything to do with proselytism. That people are wealthier may make it more likely to come about in such a world, but their wealth may mean they are more accustomed to eating a lot of meat and have little contact with livestock and therefore don’t care about their slaughter, so it’s hardly a necessary conclusion.

Jrgen,

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Those groups of people only have as many rights as people willing to defend them give them. If we didn’t believe the mentally handicapped had rights or no one was willing to defend them for them, they wouldn’t. The same could be said of animals, but, as I said, sapience (Once sapient/will become sapient).

@Aristippus

While I don’t accept that the psychic profitability of slave ownership is solely a matter of time preference, let’s assume that it is. Then that mean that the higher the owner’s time preference, the higher the psychic profit from slave ownership is. If he has a very high time preference, then he might maximize his psychic profit by owning slaves. What is incorrect here? Who is guilty of some sort of error?

Here, I don’t know if you are responding to my statement that goal of your ethics is eudaemonia, or that the general goal of all ethics is eudaemonia. I will assume that you responded to the latter. If that is the case, then I believe you are incorrect. The wikipedia definition of the term is “Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that addresses questions about morality—that is, concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice, etc.”. A lot of moral philosophies, including my own and that of, I would argue, most libertarians, is one concerned with means, rather than ends. You judge an action based on the ultimate end of it, whether it brings some people closer to eudaemonia, or further from it. Note that you still haven’t defined whose eudaemonia is the ultimate goal of all ethics. Because you obviously do not consider how close or far an animal is to its eudaemonia. If it is the eudaemonia of the acting individual, then all crime becomes ethical. So whose eudaemonia are we talking about?

And about your statement that all ethics have the common goal of eudaemonia, consider the fact that most libertarians do not concern themselves with the outcome of an action, but rather with the means used to reach it, when determining how ethical or moral an act is. They, and me too, consider an act involving aggressive violence against another individual unethical (assuming an otherwise social context, as ethics are rules or guidelines for social interaction) regardless of the outcome or what ends the actor is pursuing. The non-aggression principle is placed in the middle of all social cooperation, as a standard against which to judge the morality of an action. Because there are some of us who hold this moral philosophy, it is simply false to say that the goal of all ethics is eudaemonia.

The fact that you still use the term aggression proves that you are not familiar with how most people picture law in a stateless society. Laws are not aggressively imposed on people, but rather by joining a proteciton organization of some sort, they agree to be legally bound by certain rules and that they will be judged in certain courts if they break those rules. Aggression is clearly the wrong word to describe law enforcement in such a system. And I never said that it is a necessary conclusion. If you read my posts again, you will see that I also never argued in favor of banning animal slaughter. Remember that I am not a vegetarian, I eat meat. I said that the wealthier we becomes, the cheaper it will be for us to extend further rights to animals (such as a ban on unnecessary animal cruelty). It does not follow that people will necessarily extend further rights to them. It merely gives them the option, and I argue that doing so would mean a more civilized social order, as I define civilization (less aggressive violence and abuse = more civilized).

What I also did argue, is that in a stateless society where law and order is traded on a free market there may, under the right circumstances, arise incentives for people not caring about animal rights to voluntarily agree to extent rights to animals and legally bind themselves not to infringe upon those rights. Such incentives would, ceteris paribus, be much weaker in a statist minarchy where law is written by a group of violent monopolists.

@Zephyr

Then I believe we are in agreement. However, I don’t see why sapience entered into the picture.

The way I see it, rights apply within a given species. Human to human is the relationship where rights are applicable, human to non-human is purely emotional. This is a question concerning the way humans organize amongst themselves. We hold a person to have rights to the property they’ve worked, the property where their labor has been added. Animals fall outside this relationship - this organization. We treat animals well or poorly based on our own subjective value of them. Some worship cows, some have pet cows, I happen to like steak.

Aliens show up with superior technology and we are at their whim. Humans don’t fit into this alien organization, and therefore unless both parties have the means of coming to an agreement, which requires a means to communicate, then the stronger will prevail (if they so desire). Aliens could eat or eradicate humans and it would be moral for them to do so, as their morals apply to their alien counterparts. We only hope that the stronger being recognize the value of the other, has the means to come to an agreement, and is willing to do so.

The counter-argument that morals and rights apply to other species runs into significant issues. If one non-human species has rights, then all non-human species have rights. That being the case, and the fact that we have millions of non-human organisms living in and on our bodies then any action we perform is an act of aggression against potentially millions of organisms. Under these conditions, humans could enjoy no rights of any sort. So, applying human property rights to non-human entities makes human rights unworkable - even potentially nonexistent.