Another Wal-Mart Topic...

FotH, game theory applied to economics tells us that oligopolies and cartels don’t typically work. In fact, the Nash equilibrium out of game theory is a higher quantity produced than would be by a single monopoly.

Plus, FotH, it has been shown (and is obvious) that the prisoner’s dilemma example is incomplete when applied to a situation where repeated interactions occur, because actors can choose different outcomes based on previous experiences. This is what happens in markets - consumers have memories and are not just “lowest-price-takers.”

I’m not sure I understand your first point, but yes, I admit that the Prisoner’s Dilemma is not the best example of what I want to illustrate.

Tragedy of the Commons really is better, although I think it may throw many people off because it is often presented as if it is not applicable to private property. The truth is that it merely takes on new forms under private property.

To make this clear, first let me illustrate a more traditional presentation of the “tragedy.” In Haiti there is a problem of soil erosion due to people chopping down too many trees. On the one hand, the Haitian people want the wood from the trees, on the other, they don’t want the soil to be eroded, which causes landslides and such. So there are two conflicting but simultaneously desired poles: possession of wood and possession of good soil. If one person chops down a tree, it will not lead to poor soil, so it’s in everyone’s interest to cut down a tree. But at some point this leads to a qualitative change and everyone must confront the problem of bad soil–a cost that outweighs the benefit each gets from the wood s/he chopped.

Now let’s transform this scenario into Wal-Mart vs. the mom-and-pop. Let’s assume that there is two things that everyone wants, two poles: to buy cheap goods at Wal-Mart and to preserve the mom-and-pop. Why do they want to preserve the mom-and-pop? Perhaps each person has a specific good they buy there (such as cream soda) or perhaps they want it preserved for more intangible reasons. Perhaps it is an old store that people in the community look at with a sense of pride. Perhaps they like the atmosphere of shopping there. If one person buys all of their groceries at Wal-Mart, it won’t cause the mom-and-pop to close and s/he will benefit by getting the groceries at a lower price. But again, if a certain number of the people buy a certain percentage of their groceries at Wal-Mart, then a qualitative change will occur, the store will close, and everyone will have to deal with a cost which might outweigh the benefits that cheap Wal-Mart goods provide.

Of course the cheap goods that Wal-Mart provides could outweigh the loss of the mom-and-pop. But to suggest that because the market has decided that the mom-and-pop should go out of business means ipso facto that the community has experienced a net gain is rather naive and dogmatic.

Well, yes. That’s called scarcity in the world and we have what are called tradeoffs. What you’d like to do is wish away scarcity and have resources for everyone. While it’s a nice idea, it literally cannot physically exist.

Sure, “society” may have two goals: have the best economy in the world and have the best military in the world, but you need to reconcile the two desires. You simply can’t have both. If through voluntary actions people choose economy, then economy is more beneficial.

Note that the standard game theoretic critique doesn’t apply because of the repeated interactions and ability to choose a new outcome. If the customers regret bringing the Walmart to power they can then choose to help mom and pop set up a new store and shop only there.

Sure, the market may “fail” (according to your tastes) initially, but if “society” deems it a bad outcome, it can go back and fix things.

Plus, you could use the same logic to make an argument against cars vs. wagons or electricity vs. manpower. Anything you favor more over something else can then become a critique of free markets. “Hey, I don’t really like people walking around with iPods just because. This is a market failure. Where should society draw the line, guys?”

Be sure to catch this series of interviews:

Keep in mind this is 5 hours worth of content, as each interview is roughly 35 minutes, but all are excellent, and you have probably seen various cuts from some of them floating around YouTube. Make the time and watch them when you can. They are in chronological order.

Thomas Sowell: Uncommon Knowledge

Others are below (the top two are especially great):

Thomas Sowell: Q&A

Thomas Sowell: In The Right Direction

Thomas Sowell - CSPAN interview (1990)

Thomas Sowell on Prager (2009)

Thomas Sowell on Prager (2010 )

Thomas Sowell with Russ Roberts

I can only imagine JJ’s bookmarks folder…

You may very well not want to.

Although to be fair, (believe it or not) most of this stuff comes from memory.

No way. My bookmarks folder “ToRead” has like 80 bookmarks and my “AlreadyRead” one has 100+. I’ve had to start putting in subfolders such as “Gilded Age+Monopoly”, “Capitalism+Scarcity”, “Education”, “Ron Paul”, “Racism”, “Inequality+Labor+Wages”, and “Child Labor”

I’ll soon need “private defense” and “ABCT” as well as new subfolders for the Gilded Age.

I brought up cereal as a counter-argument to your assertion that, given two roughly equivalent items, Wal-Mart will sell only the cheaper of the two. That’s what you subsequently didn’t counter, so that’s what I consider you to have implicitly conceded to.

As far as I’m concerned, this isn’t about me feeling gratified. It’s about you understanding my points.

That sounds like a great idea. I think I’ll make “ToRead” and “AlreadyRead” bookmarks folders myself.

(And no, don’t expect me to pay you any IP royalties for this. Ideas aren’t scarce, yo. )

readitlaterlist.com

Well, yes. That’s called scarcity in the world and we have what are called tradeoffs. What you’d like to do is wish away scarcity and have resources for everyone. While it’s a nice idea, it literally cannot physically exist.

Sure, “society” may have two goals: have the best economy in the world and have the best military in the world, but you need to reconcile the two desires. You simply can’t have both. If through voluntary actions people choose economy, then economy is more beneficial.

No, that’s not exactly my point. The people prefer to have the mom-and-pop over getting cheap goods from Wal-Mart. But one individual shopping at Wal-Mart doesn’t put the mom-and-pop out of business by itself. So because the people are acting individually, they end up getting something they don’t want. Consider Alfie Kohn’s conclusion:

Adam Smith asserted that when each person endeavored to further his or her best interests, each person gained. To someone who has rejected an individualist ethic, this proposition rests on a faulty assumption–namely, the a priori belief that our analysis should be based on the solitary actor. The second, more moderate shift in perspective–which leaves our worldview similar to Smith’s but offers a long-range view–leads us to conclude that the prime theorist of capitalism was simply wrong. Everyone does not benefit when we struggle against each other for private gain. It is a simple matter of examining the evidence. To distinguish between what is rational for the individual and what is rational for the group is finally misleading because the former is “not rational, period. It is damaging not just to the group, but to the individual.”

Note that the standard game theoretic critique doesn’t apply because of the repeated interactions and ability to choose a new outcome. If the customers regret bringing the Walmart to power they can then choose to help mom and pop set up a new store and shop only there.

Sure, the market may “fail” (according to your tastes) initially, but if “society” deems it a bad outcome, it can go back and fix things.

Sure, but the people actually have to understand the situation first. They must find a way to communicate their mutual goals and perform some sort of coordinated action. I may regret the closing of the mom-and-pop and be sad that I can no longer get my cream soda. But if I don’t express that opinion, then I may conclude that I’m the only one that has it. In this way all might lose. Steven Pinker has some interesting things to say about this phenomena (particularly beginning at 7:45). I think Dan’s starting of this thread is a good step in a direction that can help us resolve this problem and lead us to coordinated action. Through dialogue we might determine, for example, that the mom-and-pop will survive if each one of us buys 50% of our groceries there. But isolated consumers have little knowledge of this.

because the people are acting individually, they end up getting something they don’t want

I’m not sure why you’re assuming that people are acting individually…

Sure, but the people actually have to understand the situation first. They must find a way to communicate their mutual goals and perform some sort of coordinated action

Sure, and that action is within a voluntary framework. I an not against that. However, the OP appeared to be saying that we should use force to prevent Walmart from operating (and yes, we have different definitions of force, w/e). If some aggregate of individuals thinks that Walmart should not beat out mom and pop, good for them, let them act. Without the government.

You’re letting the prisoners in the prisoner’s dilemma play double think. You say

  1. “The people prefer to have the mom-and-pop over getting cheap goods from Wal-Mart.”

and

  1. “But one individual shopping at Wal-Mart doesn’t put the mom-and-pop out of business by itself”

where (2) implies that in fact customers care more about the cost, not mom and pop.

The prisoners in the original dilemma have no conflict of interest like this. They have the simple motive “I want as little time as possible.” You’re trying to make them think “I prefer to have the other guy live longer as well, but I also want to have as little time as possible.”

Due to this conflict of self-interest, the system you describe fails to work.

Plus, the prisoners’ dilemma stems from the lack of communication and enforcement. If they could communicate, they could decide on a course of action.

Aaaand note that the appealing simplicity of the prisoner’s dilemma simply breaks down empirically in the real world: I meet you in person. I know that I will never see you again. I have two options:

  1. Meet you, then part ways

  2. Kill you, rob you, and then part ways

From the simple prisoner’s dilemma standpoint, the best option is to kill you, right? Well, why don’t we have people doing that massively? Some underlying assumption of the dilemma is absent in the real world, which makes it an inadequate model of human action.

And you find that the realm of private property and voluntary action/exchange is insufficient for you to express your opinion or to organize voluntary coordinated action towards your mutual cream soda goals?

your mutual cream soda goals

I lol-ed. A common goal for all Americans!

I know exactly where to put the limit. They may take our lives, but they will never take our ROOT BEER! Sorry crap joke, I just found it humorous that used the example of cream soda to ask, “Where do we draw the line?” I’m honestly not trying to poke fun at you or degrade your question. Its just a crap joke really … forget it. One point I wanted to say, using your cream soda example, was that if we didn’t subsidize corn, this wouldn’t be a problem, as the price of corn syrup would rise and honey would fall, until they were at appropriate levels and then delicious honey cream soda would no be abolished. In a free market, unless some incredible corn technology came out, there would actually be more options, as now almost everything contains corn. If there is a demand, then in a free market, products would not be so easily abolished. For example Wallmart started caring organic food when people started to be become health conscientious and people can become more and more picky eaters as the economy grows. I don’t think you’ll find arguement saying capitalism doesn’t encourage the fastest growth, so as time passes in a free market more and more, I guess you call them luxury items, are available. More growth equals more demands that can be met, unless of course you are a victim of poor taste. Just kidding

Sure, and that action is within a voluntary framework. I an not against that. However, the OP appeared to be saying that we should use force to prevent Walmart from operating (and yes, we have different definitions of force, w/e). If some aggregate of individuals thinks that Walmart should not beat out mom and pop, good for them, let them act. Without the government.

I didn’t interpret the OP’s post that way. S/he didn’t even mention government, I don’t think. What I found interesting about his/her post was the more fundamental question as to whether the actions of individuals in the market necessarily lead to the ideal outcome of those acting in it.

You’re letting the prisoners in the prisoner’s dilemma play double think. You say

  1. “The people prefer to have the mom-and-pop over getting cheap goods from Wal-Mart.”

and

  1. “But one individual shopping at Wal-Mart doesn’t put the mom-and-pop out of business by itself”

where (2) implies that in fact customers care more about the cost, not mom and pop.

No, (2) doesn’t imply that they care more about the cost of their groceries than the survival of the mom-and-pop. In order for that to be true, a person would have to believe that his shopping at Wal-Mart necessarily puts the mom-and-pop out of business. It would be like concluding that someone who dies of lung cancer prefers smoking over long-life.

I have not really used the prisoner’s dilemma in my analysis. I merely mentioned it as a part of a more general remark about game theory.

From the simple prisoner’s dilemma standpoint, the best option is to kill you, right? Well, why don’t we have people doing that massively? Some underlying assumption of the dilemma is absent in the real world, which makes it an inadequate model of human action.

I do not assert that the prisoner’s dilemma (or my slightly different example) isn’t often overcome in real life, but rather I say that it is not automatically overcome unconsciously–as if by some “invisible hand.” Do you think everyone would be better off if they followed voluntarist principles? If so, that means that many people are currently sabotaging themselves. The poor who support welfare are making the selfish choice in the prisoner’s dilemma, according to the voluntarist. If one person votes themselves other peoples money, then they win and the others lose. But if this leads to everyone voting themselves other peoples money, then everyone ends up losing. Is this not an argument that voluntarists make? Must they not admit that the prisoner’s dilemma is applicable to real life? If the market is so flawless, then why hasn’t it selected voluntarism already?

I’m not even going to ask you how people can act other than individually, because they can’t. People always act individually, because they are individuals.

Alfie Kohn’s “conclusion” is just another example of the nirvana fallacy.

Do you think everyone would be better off if they followed voluntarist principles?

No. Big business leaders would certainly be worse off.

I do not assert that the prisoner’s dilemma (or my slightly different example) isn’t often overcome in real life, but rather I say that it is not automatically overcome unconsciously–as if by some “invisible hand.” Do you think everyone would be better off if they followed voluntarist principles? If so, that means that many people are currently sabotaging themselves. The poor who support welfare are making the selfish choice in the prisoner’s dilemma, according to the voluntarist. If one person votes themselves other peoples money, then they win and the others lose. But if this leads to everyone voting themselves other peoples money, then everyone ends up losing. Is this not an argument that voluntarists make? Must they not admit that the prisoner’s dilemma is applicable to real life? If the market is so flawless, then why hasn’t it selected voluntarism already?

Voluntaryist principles ≠ only looking at the first step of the process (e.g. what is popularly called “selfishness”)

You appear to be arguing against some strawman of “rational self-interest.” You claim that because it’s in the interest of the individual to get cheaper stuff, they will do just this and forego the “socially optimal” situation where mom and pop survive.

When people perform actual selfish calculations, they want to maximize their utility. This necessarily includes taking into the account the actions of others. Thus, anyone who recognizes the prisoner’s dilemma would act in their highest self interest by taking the prisoner’s dilemma into account as well.

It’s a straw man that rational self interest implies taking the option which yields the most immediate/obvious benefits.

I’d argue that someone who only looks at the first step of the consequences is not appropriately selfish because he’s ignoring the actions of others which have an interplay with his own. Thus, it is most selfish to consider the desires of others as well. Indeed, cooperation with other people is truly selfish because it recognizes the reality of interactions with real people and how this may create situations where the individual benefits.

Ooh, good catch, Autolykos.

How do we determine the ideal outcome besides empowering people to engage in voluntary trade in the first place? You’re (or rather the OP, if this was his question) missing the whole point - if we knew the “ideal outcome,” we wouldn’t need markets.

+1

This is why I pointed out that the nirvana fallacy applies here.