Are there two sides to the Ron Paul campaign?

A curious phenomenon occurs with the candidacy of Ron Paul. On one side, we have his natural supporters – minarchists, small-government conservatives – who are an integral part of the electoral campaign. Added to the first group there are a number of those disillusioned with government (Democrats, other Republicans), generally miscelaneous. On the other side we have the anarchists, a sizable number, who advocate Ron Paul’s policies, but won’t vote for him.

Ron Paul is problematic for an anarchist because he, the anarchist, does not believe in democracy. In fact, the process is seen as supporting a status quo, a recognition of authority. That’s why an anarchist will generally not vote. Yet, an anarchist can still be part of the Ron Paul campaign, not in supporting his election (though many would not object to him getting elected), rather to bring out the ideas to a general public.

So what do you think about it? If you are an anarchist, would you vote or tell people to vote?

For us Rothbardian anarcho-capitalists (actually I like kritarchist–from the Greek for rule by judgment, i.e. choice), we MUST vote for Ron Paul. It’s not like we could or would even want to launch a violent, Russian or French-style revolution. That would make us no better than the statists. The only way to eliminate the state in this country is to work within its rules and those rules still allow for a reversal in big government. Even in a place like Myanmar I would say that violent revolution is an absolute last resort, like when coercive force is used against our families, our selves, and our property would armed resistance be permissible. Until our families were actually threatened, however, change would best be brought about, in my view, by trying to get the soldiers, police, etc to refuse to enforce the unjust, tyrannical decrees.

You can certainly vote in the primary. There’s no reason to be opposed to democracy per se; only to certain forms of democracy: the democratic election of a government is illegitimate, but the democratic election of, say, the board members of a company by the shareholders is a perfectly legitimate form of democracy. The selection of a presidential candidate for a party may be somewhat distasteful but ISTM falls squarely into the latter camp. So: vote in your primary, and then don’t vote in the general election if you’re opposed to voting.

Yes, two sides. Side 1, if Paul is elected its very good for Libertarianism, America and the world. Side 2, if Paul is not elected its probably the last time any near-Libertarian with any chance of winning will run before America and the world sinks into the final morass of Clinton/Putin collectivism.

Can those of you describing yourself as anarchists admit that you wouldn’t be rooting for one side or the other in a Paul-Clinton election? And if you were rooting for one side over the other, shouldn’t you vote to fulfill this value-tendency in yourself? Personally, I feel one should employ every legal, non-violent tactic to overthrow this curse of collectivism that has ruled virtually all the world since the time of the Romans, and probably before. Rothbard would have voted, and did.

We must? Really? Because get this… I’m not and I don’t feel I need to, in fact I think I could find about anything more worthwhile doing than voting for a guy that makes his living off of blood money.

Washing my car in the rain, for example.

Paul, despite statist fantasies about Ron Paul “saving America” there’s nothing the man can do, even if he would do it. The same stuff was said for Reagan, same stuff was said for Goldwater, the same stuff is being said for Paul. How many times do you people have to be fooled till you wise up? Politicians are dirty, rotten, sub-human entities.

Whether you agree with 100% of what they say or not.

The fact is, this state, the state, its inevitable, but it is as inevitable as its final collapse. Personally, I’m ready for the last day of judgment against the state. Bring it on before technology makes it impossible to piss without the state knowing you’ve become dehydrated.

I’m an anarchists and I’ll be voting for Ron Paul.

And I’m not alone.

So the Libertarian Party is vital if not necessary to repealing statism. And contrary to Konkin’s suggested timetable of a millennium, a militant and abolitionist LP in control of Congress could wipe out all the laws overnight. All that would be needed is the will. No other strategy for liberty can work. And yet, all this pales before the most important problem: Is a Libertarian Party evil per se? Is voting evil per se? My answer is no. The State is a Moloch that surrounds us, and it would be grotesque and literally impossible to function if we refused it our “sanction” across the board. I don’t think I am committing aggression when I walk on a government-owned and government-subsidized street, drive on a government-owned and subsidized highway, or fly on a government regulated airline. It would be participating in aggression if I lobbied for these institutions to continue. I didn’t ask for these institutions, dammit, and so don’t consider myself responsible if I am forced to use them. In the same way, if the State, for reasons of its own, allows us a periodic choice between two or more masters, I don’t believe we are aggressors if we participate in order to vote ourselves more kindly masters, or to vote in people who will abolish or repeal the oppression. In fact, I think that we owe it to our own liberty to use such opportunities to advance the cause.

Let’s put it this way: Suppose we were slaves in the Old South, and that for some reason, each plantation had a system where the slaves were allowed to choose every four years between two alternative masters. Would it be evil, and sanctioning slavery, to participate in such a choice? Suppose one master was a monster who systematically tortured all the slaves, while the other one was kindly, enforced almost no work rules, freed one slave a year, or whatever. It would seem to me not only not aggression to vote for the kinder master, but idiotic if we failed to do so. Of course, there might well be circumstances—say when both masters are similar—where the slaves would be better off not voting in order to make a visible protest—but this is a tactical not a moral consideration. Voting would not be evil, but in such a case less effective than the protest**.**

Ron Paul may be a politician, but he’s hardly comparable to Regan. The fact that he does take some money from the feds I don’t find all that immoral, since it he wasn’t in office someone else in his place would be taking much, much more money. In any case, he’s introducing a lot of people to the ideas of Austrian economics. Hell, the guy even mentioned Spooner as a model for peaceful civil disobedience on national TV, and all but suggested that such actions are justified against unjust taxation.

It will just be replaced by another one, unless the conditions are right. Americans are heavily indoctrinated to respect the US Constitution and the Founding Fathers. Ironically, I believe the Constitution is used as a tool to legitimize government, even though an actual education of it would delegitimize government. I think American’s respect for their founders (and I think they do deserve respect, we all stand on the shoulders of giants) is the only way libertarian ideas can be introduced and become popular, as Ron Paul is showing us.

Comparing Ron Paul to statists like Reagan and Goldwater is dramatically unfair to Paul. Reagan and Goldwater were part of the New Right, that accepted the government’s place in society and its responsibilities to uphold the welfare of its citizens, but also believed that the free market was often the best way to do that. Ron Paul rejects the state’s authority in many of these matters. Reagan and Goldwater failed because they did not want to reduce government authority, only the form of exercising that authority. Ron Paul seeks to undermine the actual authority of the state.

Webster wrote, “Comparing Ron Paul to statists like Reagan and Goldwater is dramatically unfair to Paul.”

I fully concur. Reagan was probably the biggest state-spender since Papa Joe Stalin (Truman’s buddy). Goldwater was closer to Libertarianism, but was a militarist. Rothbard was so convinced he would drop the bomb, he voted for Johnson I believe—a real Hobson’s choice. Frankly, I don’t think Dr. Paul is such a great Libertarian. His views on abortion, prayer in schools, his support for the death penalty as being constitutional which it obviously isnt, make him far from someone who “seeks to undermine the actual authority of the state.” The state can still arrest you, frame you, and murder you under his philosophy. It can force agnostics and atheists to pay taxes to support religious activity. (Who’s paying for the lights while class is reciting its prayer? Who pays for the janitor to sweep up after the “Bible Club” leaves the classroom a mess? It’s theft of taxes.) But does anyone in either party come anywhere close to Libertarianism, or constantly stressing the Constitution and free-markets? To my mind, Dr. Paul is the first politician with any “huevos” to run for the Presidency since George McGovern (though I dont agree with George’s programs). His integrity shines through in contrast to all the other canditates, the Caitiffs of Collectivism.

Perhaps you missed this, but Goldwater LOST. We don’t know WHAT he would have been like as President. As William F. Buckley, jr famously said: “They told me in 1964 that if I voted for Goldwater there would be rioting in the streets, war in Asia, and civil strife at home. Well, I did and there were.”

Ah, yes, it’s much better to be beaten with the golden bat.

The slaves aren’t consenting to be ruled by voting but merely allowed to chose the brand of chains they wear. What would happen if they all voted for a ‘write-in’ candidate who promised to free them all?

Even if the Libertarian Party managed to gain control of all three branches of government they would still not be able to repeal all the laws because they derive their power from the constitution and would be bound by the restrictions it placed upon them. Without 100% support of the citizenry they would be legally bound to hear all cases in opposition to their plans and would be just as legally bound to judge them from within the guidelines of the current system. If they chose to ignore the opposition because they had the support of the ‘moral majority’ they would lose their powers to rule and would in effect be consenting to be removed by force of violence.

First of all, abortion should be left out of libertarianism because to those who oppose abortion, it falls under the same principals of natural law as murder. Very few people believe that abortion should be illegal who do not believe that it is murder, and believing that an infant’s humanity is not decided by its location is not a direct reflection on one’s views on the power of civil government. Likewise, to claim that the death penalty is unconstitutional is quite absurd given that to my knowledge not one person who attended the Constitutional Convention objected to the death penalty (and it was in place at the time). Prayer in schools is not a matter of Bible class; it is a matter ofbeing permitted to say private prayers when on school property that cost no other anything. Yes, having a Bible class in school would be theft, but then again so is having a physics class in school.

JonBostwick, perhaps Konkin’s reply shall answer Rothbard’s misguided thoughts.

And for anecdotal evidence. Were the people of Italia to be more informed and enthused about a world of Anarchy, the state would surely be dispelled with little to no resistance.

The Italian government is weak, the Italian police are weaker.

If you find an Italian that actually pays all of his taxes you’ll be the first. If you take 100 Italians aside, chances are 20 of them are already counter-economists. Its not a hard thing to do, to thwart the government, it merely requires more people.

" Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. "

“Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.”

What a statist!

Its mostly a defense of agorism and an attack on political parties. I have yet to attack agorism or defend political parties.

How do you perform civil disobedience against the Iraq war?

Neither your nor Konkin have realized that politicing is a forum to convert people away from the state. But you have to remember, we are only opposed to the State because it is violent. We are anti-crime. Our goal is abolish all aggression that we have power to abolish. The State makes an obvious target, it commits most of the violence and relies on our money to do it.

Suppose your idea that the State is absolute, unassailable is true(it’s not), then we must still abolish as much of its aggression as is in our power. If we can abolish only half of the State, we must still invest ourselves.

It would seem you introduced civil disobiedence into the discussion and that was a direct example to further their point. Are ad hominem attacks an Italian thing since you enjoy throwing them around so much?

**

He’s clearly better than the alternatives. Thats all I ment.

It is, they were (although to much less a degree than any other politicians I’ve heard about), and honestly I think we are pretty lucky we got what we did. For the record, Jefferson did wish for a completely voluntary society (where everyone would agree to the US Constitution), but he didn’t see any viable way to achieve that (and he was also a slave-owner). In any case, in most people’s minds the choice between a state and anarchy was a choice between a bit of coercion and a massive amount of coercion. They picked what they saw as the lesser of the evils. Unless I’m mistaken, the idea that anarchy can really work is relatively new.

But as far as Ron Paul goes, please point to a more viable option to spread the ideas of liberty in America, and I’ll concede.