Argument Against Market-Anarchism? (transitional costs & human suffering)

Plenty. Construction workers die all the time, and I’ve never seen it have an effect on the marketability of the building. Have you?

In that case it sounds like a problem of standards not being enforced. I agree that that’s a problem. It’s impossible to conclude from that that enforcing standards is a bad thing.

Wait, so now you’re saying that when the FAA responds to public opinion, it’s a bad thing? And this is the same public that you believe are going to make sure airlines are safe through their purchasing decisions? The FAA generally does a very good job of enforcing safety regulations. Sometimes they go overboard. Sometimes they fail to enforce necessary regulations. Some of their regulations aren’t the most reasonable they could be. That there are problems with the system doesn’t mean that everything will be better if there’s no regulation at all.

If you read my first post, you’d understand how it can be profitable for employers to spend less on safety and remain profitable. Hiring is a costly operation when it’s necessary for you to find good applicants. Not so much when anyone can do the job. I hesitate to point that out for fear of being called Captain Obvious again, but it seems that you need it to be pointed out for you. And to say that high unemployment can only exist in a country with “excessive” regulation is absurd. Unemployment can occur for any number of reasons, including natural disasters, loss of demand for certain products, violence, technological improvement, etc.

Wow. Way to stay on point. To address the argument that you didn’t bother to make, the problem with unions when they don’t have state backing is that workers can be fired and they have to resort to violence to ensure that scabs don’t work. Unless they have enough support (internally and from non-union members who could replace them), they’re not going to be successful at shutting down the employer.

How do people know that cheap airlines are more dangerous? Anyone who flies regularly knows that the pricing for national airline tickets works in a way that two people on the same flight in the same class of seating may have entirely different amounts for the exact same amount of safety. There’s less variation in the pricing for commuters and air taxis, but it’s certainly not obvious to the average consumer that safety is the sole determinant of price (which it isn’t). When people take the cheaper ticket, they’re rarely thinking “I know that this company makes its pilots try to do VFR landings when conditions are below minima because it saves them fuel money, but I’ll accept that risk” because they have absolutely no idea that that’s happening. And most probably wouldn’t even understand what I mean by that if they were told. There’s an information imbalance which makes your assumptions about consumer decisions completely invalid.

Not at all, but it is a very important factor. Obviously other things that consumers know about, like image and service reputation play a role too. Things that they don’t know about don’t play a role. When there’s an information imbalance, as there almost always will be when it comes to the safety practices of an employer, consumers aren’t going to be influenced by those factors that they don’t know about.

You’re right that they’ll have trouble keeping better employees. That doesn’t mean that the market will ensure that safety standards are as high as they would be if they’re enforced by government. I know of safe airline companies that have stopped flying certain routes because they weren’t profitable. And the reason the routes weren’t profitable is not one of the following: government regulation made them too expensive to fly; people didn’t want to fly the route; the company was poorly managed. The reason the routes weren’t profitable is that unsafe airlines could afford to undersell the good airlines because they didn’t spend the money on maintenance, training, pilot rest time, etc. that they should have.

Of course the airline industry is heavily regulated in the US. That’s one of the reasons why the US has one of the best aviation safety records worldwide.

You shouldn’t trust government just because it’s government. It takes hard work to make government do its job properly, but that doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t be done. Uruguay isn’t exactly a model nation when it comes to aviation regulation, so no, I wouldn’t trust the government there on aviation as it’s currently being run.

Umm…no.

What I was saying is that the Court of Public Opinion is a powerful motivator as can be seen by the FAA going ‘overboard’.

The very fact that ‘standards get enforced’ very, very diligently when the public is in an uproar as opposed to when a few expendable workers die here and there without anything changing also shows this to be true.

What makes you think the State is the only body that can effectively enforce standards anyway?

One would think that some entity that has a direct financial incentive in the matter would be more interested in making sure their liabilities were limited like the companies that insure the property or activity in question. All state regulations and inspections really do is to externalize the costs of maintaining standards for the insurance companies and businesses involved.

Or mortgage companies that require a home inspection to verify that the building is up to standards before they will give you a dime to purchase it.

What, like Jet Blue?

How are they doing these days?

Thank you.

So we should deregulate things but just in 3rd World countries like mine?

Thanks, I hope my polliticians listen to you. We would really get an edge over the rest of the countries!!!

Now, jokes away. Your problem is believing that the “the system has flaws but it is the best available”. The very reason why the system has flaws is because it is wrong.

The same happens with taxes. People argue in favour of “more progressive” taxes or exemptions for unprivileged groups (doesn’t it hear contradictory?) while the very reason why tax systems screw things is because taxes are wrong.

You are trying to remodel a house that lacks foundations.

For years I have been cherishing the idea of an independent laboratory to certify the quality of food and beverages. It is a reality that “hygiene inspectors” start working only the year before Town Hall elections. They get some people in jail, appear in the news and the public opinion says “our Mayor is working for us”.

Seeing the success of “ISO certified”, “ASME certified” and other private seals of quality, I believe that one or more companies offering private seals of hygiene would work a lot better. The customer in the supermarket would have the opportuinity to choose between a pack of rice with no seal and one certified by SGS (the most important company in grain quality control). The general tendency in the market is to always offer more for the same price, as it is easier and cheaper to compete that way. So you would choose between 50 cents for unqualified rice or 50 cents for the SGS certified rice. In the worst case, the low quality producers would have to lower their prices, and their products become available to many more people in larger quantities.

Someone could say: “You intend to feed the poor with crap”. And I answer, “I intend to feed the poor”, making aside any other argument. They are starving right now, but when the cheap rice millers feel the pressure of the market they (the poor) will have cheaper food availble at the same quality they intended to buy before.

Would you tell to a starving Sudanese, “No, I won’t give you any hamburgers because they have too much cholesterol”?

Why hasn’t any lab offered this inspection service yet? Maybe nobody told them the idea. I have told the idea to some friends in Chemical and Food Engineering, but they are no entrepreneurs, not even close.

You’ve neither proved nor demonstrated the government even knows where the appropriate level of security is, or that its standards are not arbitrary. Economists posit governments can do all sorts of things - they can, and they usually have unintended consequences and fail to achieve even their stated goals - which is to say nothing of how those goals are chosen.

Tough luck. It is up to the consumer, consumers associations and insurers to find these things out, and decide what level of safety they want or not. Mandating “high standards” means little.

-Jon

You’re arguing that firms will improve security because of the costs of hiring a replacement or because the consumers care… That’s non-sense. Why do firms even pay his workers? They could just feed them to make sure they have enough energy for the next day. Look, the reason why firms provide safety, promise job security, some even provide leisure and stuff like that is to reduce the wage of workers. A worker will not be willing to build some huge, tall building for the same price as for building a one-floor house. A worker is not going to work with antrax for the same price he would be willing to work to create aspirinis. In order to attract workers for a lower price, companies point to their record and may have certifications and whatever, to lure people to take those jobs for a lower price they otherwise would be willing to.

Similarly, airlines would attract customers with a higher price with safety value. Why did people voted for a government agency to regulate airplances in the first place? Because they care about their safety. Why don’t people care about safety when buying a ticket? Because there is a government agency that promises safety. If it didn’t exist, airports or airlines would be certified by some private agencies. There is all kinds of volunteer certifications through the various industries. These certifications agencies have a lot to lose if they mess up and an airplane crashes or is hi-jacked – unlike the monopoly government agency – therefore, you can bet your ass you’d be a lot more safe with these pro-profit agencies. People feel warm about government caring about them while ignoring their very lousy record, just because they are a democracy or non-profit or something organization…

EDIT: one way that airplanes could show their confidence in their safety is by promising some big insurance in case of problems. If all the bad pubilicity and a lot of other pressures weren’t enough, this would surely make them check very well for any safety breach.

Labor is necessary for production. Labor has disutility to the laborer; i.e., human suffering.

ALL future improvements upon the human condition require “human suffering” in the present.

Natch.

It seems to me that Callisthenes has some valid points. There is definitely a sweet spot where safety, wage rates, and labor markets converge. Greater safety standards should mean larger labor markets, and thus, lower wages. Conversely, poor standards means smaller markets, higher wages. Safety standards are more likely to be fixed costs, while labor costs (especially at the lower skill levels) are generally variable costs. The greater investment spending is to consumption, the better able businesses are to hurdle fixed costs to improve safety and be more profitable in the long-term.

The problem is that markets don’t necessarily optimize for the long-term. This is especially true when the market is fueled more by artificial credit for investment than genuine credit. As Mises has shown, artificial credit cannot change the investment to consumption ratios of the market. Making investments as though the ratios are changed will simply lead to massive malinvestment. Additionally, the main selling point of artificial credit and inflationary monetary systems is the money illusion. This leads the lesser educated to believe that they are receiving more money in real terms than they actually are. This is one of the largest reasons why unskilled workers are the most harmed by such policies. Their prices increase faster than their wages. While minimum wage law prevents us from seeing the complete effects of such a policy, we can at least notice that minimum wage decreased in real terms for nearly a decade prior to the last increase without increasing unemployment significantly. (Of course, I’m using government-defined unemployment, which may be subsidized or voluntary unemployment rather than real unemployment.) Rather, if lower-skilled workers were given a better monetary policy, they would be able to save and invest more of their earnings, which would allow greater opportunity, in choice of workplace and products (and in choosing to labor for income or to invest for income).

Many economic problems are ones of time-scales. Why do people invest in Ponzi schemes? Why did wildcat banks exist? Such practices promise quick wealth for both parties, at the expense of massive risk. I think it is immoral to prevent people from entering into such actions, but it is virtuous to simply spread information about the risks. Stupidity can only be fought by knowledge of consequence. Whether this is directly or indirectly learned is up to the individual actor. Yet, it is HIGHLY IMMORAL AND ECONOMICALLY PERVERSE to hold the wise and innocent responsible for the bad decisions of others.

Anyway, it is easy to freeze frame moments of time and say IF. But we really can’t know. We can’t test two different policies in the real world, for the same market, at the same period of time. We can’t say that some decision that wasn’t made would have been problem-free or even better than what was chosen, except in theory.

When we talk about regulation, we often simply think that no regulation is simply the government not bothering to do its job. Our theoretical assumption is that the only difference in the market is the actions of the regulators. This is too shallow of an analysis. The government has collected the taxes that pay the regulators. The market no longer has these funds at its disposal. This is a market distortion. If those taxes weren’t collected, would they be invested or spent on consumption? Maybe they’d better safety standards; maybe they’d make them worse. There is an endless stream of complexity to suggest consequences from a few simple decisions. Yet, we can still average-out the market, especially over long periods of time.

I am convinced that government regulation has three problems that prevent if from being beneficial in general, in the long-term.

One, it is inefficient. The money must be taxed away. I can’t tell you if this means more or less money for this or that class and what they’ll do with it. Our tax structure is tied into so many things, with so many exemptions, and then there’s tax evasion. What I do know is that it deprives the market of power. I think the free actions of concerned parties will create better prosperity than some planned economy. In that safety regulations are performed by politically-protected bureaucrats paid by involuntary taxes, I would assume that their regulations are out of sync with the market’s expectations for safety standards, especially given the size and scope of government. Further, I would assume that these regulations are unevenly enforced between competitive businesses. All these factors mean scarce resources are being allocated in a manner that does not serve the market’s desires (if one business is given monopolistic privilege, this is certainly not in the general market’s favor). This simply means there is inefficiency. Even a small amount of inefficiency can be very consequential in the long-run. The greater the inefficiency (between the cost of government regulation and market regulation), the less the desirable effects of the regulation will be performed, while the greater the costs (in the productivity of the economy) will be.

Second, passing responsibilities off to others creates moral hazard, promoting continued ignorance and poor market decisions. If the market refuses to identify unsafe products at some point in time, it does so at its own risk. If the market ends up displeased with its decisions, it will not continue them. At an individual level, this means those who choose poorly will either die off (either literally or in terms of market power), constantly being subject to greater and greater risks and costs (such as you described in the costs of trying to hold a business liable for damages…and in medical/quality-of-life costs). The long-term effect of allowing workers to work in unsafe environments and the market to buy unsafe products is the gradual lessening of such choices. In the absence of government regulation, there may be some small terrible outcomes; but from what I understand, every large-scale economic or social problem caused by “the free market” actually stemmed from unseen consequences of other government policies, which had distorted the market away from being free. My point here can be compared to welfare, which has shown no indication of reducing societal need, but rather has increased it. In other words, if the problem is the combination of freedom with stupidity, we are better off keeping the freedom and letting the stupidity harm itself out of existence, then the other way around. The more likely people are to resort to stupid actions, the more likely they will be able to perform them, even in the face of prohibition.

Third, prosperity builds prosperity. If the absence of government regulations leads to greater economic activity, production, and more investment opportunity, it seems that several things will happen. Workers will be more productive, having greater access to capital resources. This will increase their wages. This gives laborers more leverage to accept lower wages in a safer environment. Also, this allows for greater competitive enterprise, in both capital and consumer goods industry. This reduces cost. In the long-run, a highly productive economy will eliminate the problems altogether, constantly improving both safety and production costs. Both government-regulated and free-market can get to this point, but I would wager the free market gets there quickest without any large problems in human suffering or oppression.

I tend to see trends where liberals (Democrats) argue for more regulation, especially when some regulation is removed and problems occur. But the problems aren’t society-wide issues. Enron and Worldcom, for instance, were not indicative of the entire stock market. Regulation tends to make them more general problems. Sarbannes-Oxley has taken the possible pain stemming from criminal actions of specific actors and turned it into real pain spread across the entire public corporate sector. Liberals fail to realize that regulation MUST prohibit the market from doing “good” activity. Besides the distortions and inequalities in competitive opportunity it creates, the mere fact that it requires taxation to fund necessitates that the market cannot perform some productive, mutually-beneficial activities. Often, regulation leads simply to greater problems, then greater regulation, and so on, until you spend vast amounts of effort prohibiting desirable behavior…then when the market “fails,” a proposal to nationalize industry comes about. If regulation had no cost, and only prevented bad decisions, it wouldn’t be hard to rally behind, even if it does indeed limit economic freedom. But it could still have negative consequences if it allows economic ignorance to flourish.

If you guys want to read some on how/why the free market promotes work safety, do some googling on compensating differential. (curiously, you may also want to google for google labs to see what they do to attract great minds for cheaper than their margin productivity and to also make them work some more than they would otherwise be willing to.)