Mises; and Convincing Dullards

So, like always, as my introduction to this post, I just want to say that these views are quite tentative, ambiguous, and poorly expressed. So, again, I hope that you will bear with me or something.

The position concerning what ‘political organization’ is best, of the proponents of “anarcho-capitalism”, is that we should dismantle, get rid of, any sort of ‘political organization’, we should reduce the ‘states’, that is, the compulsory, territorial monopolies of provision of law and order, into what many of the people here call “private defense agencies”, that is, into businesses each providing law, order, or both, ‘freely competing’ with each other, and seeking the voluntary contributions of people. Now I am sure that most of us are familiar with the fact that Mises did not conceive of such an arrangement. Despite what people like Poptech want you to believe, he never even engaged any form of it at all; in fact, when he talked of “anarchy”, he was using that word to refer to the absence of any sort of police force, which is clearly not what “anarcho-capitalism” is about:

He is saying, in that quotation, that “[t]he anarchists contend that[…] a[…] society could do without[…] a police force”. Now, as I already said, that is clearly not what the “anarcho-capitalists” believe; all of them express that, in a ‘free society’, police forces would exist; the only difference would be that they would be provided by the ‘market’, instead of by a monopoly. If someone disagrees that Mises ever engaged “anarcho-captalism”, I want to see the proof; but, for now, I have yet to see any. He came very close to thorough ‘voluntism’; but he never seemed to give it any thought that these voluntary governments could ever be non-territorial; he always assumed that, whether they were voluntary or not, they would, because of “technical problems” never elaborated on by him, have to be territorial.

The “anarcho-capitalists” contend that Mises hypostatized states, that he removed the analysis of states out of the rest of his work, that, although he knew of the fact that monopolies do not have the incentive to serve consumers, he did not subject his view of states to that. Why are monopolies of provision of food bad from the point of view of consumers but those of provision of law and order not? Why should the market produce every good besides law and order? What is so special about law and order? The following quotation outlines the most general, most basic form of this argument:

Now:

Now, because “the best theories […] cannot work if not accepted by a majority of the people”, his later assertion that “[e]conomics must not[…] be left to esoteric circles” makes sense. He believed that he and other people had to convince the masses to accept the philosophy and economics of “liberalism” to see that “liberalism” triumph. But, as Mises has written, the masses are just a bunch of “simple routinists” and “dullards”. So what sort of chance did he really expect us to have? How are we supposed to convince masses of dullards to embrace our theories, many of which are not very emotionally comfortable to hold and many of which go straight against our intuitions? The masses are not interested in learning this stuff.

But I am not so convinced that the explicit theories of the masses really matter. I am not so convinced that it really matters whether or not the hordes of “simple routinists” and “dullards” embrace “liberalism”, “libertarianism”, “anarcho-capitalism”, or whatever you want to call it. But, far from thinking that his insistence of this point was a blunder, I think that it was a systematic error caused by the fact that he failed to conceive of law and order provided by a market. He is saying that “[i]n the market economy the realization of technological innovations does not require anything more than the cognizance of their reasonableness by one or a few enlightened spirits” but then that “it is different in the field of social organization and economic policies”. Now, in reading that, what people like us should immediately realize is that we do in fact conceive of law and order provided by the market; so why should his assertion that “[i]n the market economy the realization of technological innovations does not require anything more than the cognizance of their reasonableness by one or a few enlightened spirits” not apply also to the movement toward the dismantling of statism? And why should it not apply to the choice of ‘policies’ once we do reach these ‘stateless societies’? If we assume that what will bring the dismantling of statism will be a market process, why should we care about convincing the masses?

I am not sure where I read this; but I remember reading an article where the person was talking about how the progression toward the dismantling of statism will probably happen through the market, not through convincing the masses. The way that he thought that it would happen is that companies would actually make it more difficult to subjugate us. The most extreme example of this is a company saying “ok, the state takes 20% of your income per year; if you sign up with us, we will require only 10% per year and will defend you from the state”. After a while, when other companies competing with them keep lowering it, we will finally be left with such a powerless state that we will need something other than the state to provide protection from petty criminals; and those companies would probably morph into general defense agencies. The closer that they get to cutting off all of the funds to the state, the less the state will be able to provide any sort of protection; and the closer that they get to that, the less profits that they will be getting. So it is probable that, in destroying the state, they would morph into “private defense agencies”. Now I am not sure what the gradual steps between that will be.

Now, on that point, expressed in the words of Mises, “[h]owever dull a man may be, he knows how to tell the difference between [paying 20% of his income] and [paying 10% of his income]”. So, in conclusion, if we assume that the dismantling of statism will be a market process, we no longer have to think of trying to always convince the masses; and I think that this is a much better prospect, anyway. The masses of people are so dull and thoughtless that, if we truly had to convince them to embrace our doctrines, we would, in my opinion, be screwed.

Now this does not go against what the Mises institute is doing. What they are doing is reaching out to people who want to learn this stuff, the people who will be a part of the ‘market process’ toward the dismantling of statism. They are teaching this stuff to people who could otherwise have never been exposed to any of this. They are speaking to the masses only to find out who the thinking people are.

Fascinating post.

Why do such companies not already exist? Because the State would use its superior power to put it down. Such a company would face the same problems as a secessionist community defense agency. Essentially you are saying a non-territorial secessionist community is more likely to be created and sustained than a territorial one.

How could such a company succeed? Either 1) the defense-against-the-state (DAS) company has superior firepower (unlikely) or 2) the State does not engage with the company. For the latter to happen, there would need to be widespread support among the dullards for the secessionists and the DAS company. Right now, the dullards would be on the side of the State; the secessionists would be denounced as unpatriotic tax evaders, and the DAS company would be called terrorist.

The likelihood of a DAS company being created depends on the profit margins involved and the risk of State aggression. So as taxes are increased, the likelihood increases, because the company will have bigger potential profits. It could promise to only ‘tax’ 70% of income, for example, rather than the State’s 80%.

There already exist some individuals who refuse to pay taxes. These people presumably have some sort of mutual support network for ‘how to get away with it’ and ‘what to do if the State goes after you’. The development you are describing would be an evolution of this network to the point where it is done openly and where dullards join without fear that they will be punished by the State.

“the best theories […] cannot work if not accepted by a majority of the people”

More and more I avoid talking to statists about politics, but I will usually say something like, “If I am walking past you on the street and one of us punches the other in the face, that is wrong right?”. They typically agree unquestionably with this, even though they will probably fall victim to some sort of fallacy of “conventional wisdom” later. This is just an example of the non-aggression principle though.

Most people accept it. They just fail to realize that taxation is theft because that it’s not theft has been beaten into them so badly this euphemism developed. Most people don’t care to know how a TV works as long as it does what they want.

I could say more, but don’t feel like it now. There is some good article I have somewhere about “why there is no market anarchist movement”. Maybe someone knows it.

Tues. 10/04/27 16:52 EDT
.post #85

[url=Mises; and Convincing Dullards - #3 by E_R_Olovetto]

I disagree. Inflation is theft; taxation is extortion and robbery (let’s just call it “taxtortion”).

We might also see less extreme steps first. For example, the internet is making people harder to govern, right? The internet is especially messing up and defying things like copyrights, which are of the state. (Sorry that I could not give a better reply.)

False. Firstly, It is not illegal to provide judicial or protection services. The coercion is against those involved in disputes, the compulsion to attend state courts. Secondly, if by power we mean armed might then it would logically follow that all states are total dictatorships; the executive could issue any instruction and army would simply put down anyone who disagrees with the executives. The real reason that it has not and would not succeed is because nobody other than the rebels would find it unseemly for the army to slaughter people for abstaining from attendance of state court.

I think the answer is that in the cheaper shoe example, Mises is assuming a functioning legal framework, i.e. a social organization that depends on the support of public opinion. Even though technological innovations require only the insight of a few people, this can only take place within an institutional framework that has the support of the masses. So I think Mises’s original point stands: since market anarchism aims at changing the institutional framework, we must obtain the support of public opinion.

Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideals

I don’t think the masses need to “embrace our doctrines” in the sense of engaging in a thorough study of libertarianism. Rather, they just need to be not biased towards statism and generally nonviolent. As Stringham and Hummel put it:

Ultimately, a system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than 0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to prefer libertarian ideals.

Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideals
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideals
Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideal
Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertari
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideals
Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideals
Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideal
Ultimately, a
system depends on the relative intensities of pro and anti-market people and their
willingness to act on these beliefs. In a world where 99.9 percent of the population is
apolitical and not significantly violent, a libertarian society could come about with less than
0.1 percent of society even being aware of libertarian writings. But if the non-libertarians are
biased against libertarianism, then a greater number of people will need to be persuaded to
prefer libertarian ideals