Austrian & Keynesian Theories Vs. Mathematical Facts

Miscellaneous General
221

Since our money (number) does not consist of any known chemical substance how can it be a good? Money is just a tool to make barter simpler, that’s all it is.

Can you tell me how the “market” produces this good?

How can NUMBERS ever be scarce? It’s impossible to run out of them.

Check book money is not legal tender in any sense of the word, nor is it even called money in any law. It’s all credit. Clearly the people have chosen bank credit as their meduim of exchange since most people don’t want to deal in Coins or Cash. Anyone can look around them and see that virtually nobody uses legal tender anymore, plus there is a lot of places that refuse to accept legal tender anyways. Try to file any case with the supreme court and you’ll find out. They will only accept a check in payment of a filing fee. They refuse legal tender, even though they tell us we all have to use it. Plenty of businesses don’t use or won’t accept legal tender either. Clearly they preffer the check book money.

Last I checked indivduals desire economic freedom? How can you ever been economically free when all money is loaned into existance and as soon as time and interest kick in the debt grows but the money supply does not?

But it is our job to make sure that whatever is used for money doesn’t give a special advantage to a particular group of people, or be used as a tool for theft by deception, as it is now.

The vast majority of people do not use legal tender in the day to day lives, and the legal tender only represents a book keeping entry at a bank anyways. The real problem isn’t what we use for money, the problem is the principles under which our money comes into circulation under.

I hear a lot of people say that they don’t want it, but EVERYONE I know is trying to get more of it. If the Austrian school really believed in what they said they wouldn’t accept any of this money. If it’s so horrible then why does the austrian school want more of it?

The most efficient unit of exchange is numbers and we can clearly see that it works. You can purchase anything in the world with those numbers in your checking account, the problem is that there is a complete monopoly on the creatation of money by the banking system as interest bearing loans.

We don’t have a free market. We have a market completely controlled by the banking system. If they like you, they’ll give you a huge loan again and again and you can do lots of business, if not they refuse to loan to you, or call in loans. It’s impossible to get money into our system with borrowing it.

Such specuulations are of job entrpreneurs? What he should say is that people who actually run a business realize in the long run that you cannot run a business on borrowed money.

There is no laws requiring anyone to accept payment in check book money as it is not legal tender. There is also no statutory definition of the dollar. People only accept checkbook money as dollar through pure mental deception.

How can a man be free when all of the money is the system belongs to a private group of individuals and those individuals have a mortgage on 100% of the property in the USA?

No one is forcing you to use legal tender today since legal tender laws are not enforced anymore.

Everyone I know wants more of it. Everyone. I promise you I’ve never seen anyone pull legal tender out of their wallet and just throw it away. Why would anyone want to keep something they don’t want? If you really don’t want any of your legal tender please send it all to me. I’ll even pay for shipping.

The only unit of exchange is bank credit because the banking system has a complete monopoly on the creation of money.

There is 5 forms of money. Debt money, Wealth money, Fiat money, commodity money, and fudiciary money. Debt money and wealth money can be made from any of the combination of the fiat, commodity and fidiciary money. If you really want the market to compete, the we are going to have to let wealth money compete with debt money otherwise right now, we only have debt money competing with debt money, and all of it owed to the banking system. Would you rather have your paycheck spent to you or loaned to you? Right now all money is loaned into exsistance.

Any study of history proves that the people always preffered the paper over the gold/silver. In the past people did use tobacco, stones, beeds, for money, the thing about gold/silver, tobacco, stones, sea shells, ect,…is that those all came into circulation as a wealth to the people and not an interest bearing debt. For more information on different things coined as money in the USA please read this UNDERSTANDING THE COINAGE CLAUSE. They even coined leather for god sakes. It’s not what we use for money, its the principles under which money functions. A tool to enhance honest fair trade or a tool for theft by decpetion. Wealth money - vs - debt money. If the people really thought that stones or ciggerettes was a more convienent tool to enchance trade they would have chosen those long ago.

All a person has to do is look at society and view what they are using. The people have always chosen the easiest, most effient form of money available. this has never changed throughout history to my knowledge.

What the people choose to use for their medium of exchange doesn’t have anything to do with mathematical mysticism. It has to do with what the people preffer. Considering that the vast majority of the people refuse to use metal coinage for money and preffer using just simple numbers for money I think I’m in the mainstream of reality here. Sorry I’m not a warlock or an alchemist, I’m just a man who is able to think for himself instead of following a belief system that gold just has to work because it’s gold! Come on, the people never wanted to use the gold anyways, it’s heavy, bulky, and isn’t convenient. If we really went to using gold/silver all ecommerce would shut down, plus can you imagine the shipping costs just to pay for something across the country? It’s so much easier to use numbers for money.

222

97% of our money supply (or more) is just a book keeping entry (electronic entry in a computer) at a bank. The paper currency and coins that are part of our money supply only represent at best 3% of our money supply.

Last time I went to any fast food place I had the option of paying electronically or with paper currency/coin. In order for my checking account to have any money in it somebody had to borrow the money and pay interest on it. So yes, McDonalds only accepts borrowed money for payment because that is all we have in circulation. Bank credit takes the form of a book keeping entry. All banks do to create money is make an entry on their books.

Gold used to be a form of money and because man combined his labor, raw resources of the eath and his knowledge under the 1792 coinage act all gold money came into exsistance as a wealth. You can still get gold and not go into debt if you own a gold mine but you cannot have that gold coined into money free of charge. Now all coinage stocks are delievered directly to the federal reserve system and delievered through the banking system by law. The only way you or I can purchase those gold coins is by someone going into debt to the bank then using that bank credit to purchase those coins. If you want to just purchase gold bullion with money, again, someone has to borrow that money first be it you or someone else.

Money does not just exisist. It’s a man made product and is ONLY made in your local bank when they issue a loan.

They would all be in debt if the supplier of the ciggerettes only loaned those ciggerettes to the prisoners, and the supplier was the only source of the ciggerettes. If the prisions could create their own ciggerettes to pay the interest they they wouldn’t need to borrow in the first place and there would be no debt and a meduim of exchange within the camp. If the camp’s prisoners did work and were paid (spent) ciggerettes then all those ciggerettes would be debt free.

Debt Money = Loaned into circulation

Wealth money = Spent into circulation

223

What on earth are you talking about? Checmical sustand?

Money is a good because people want units of exchange. It make’s their life easier.

Can you tell me how Apple makes the Ipod? No? How about how a pencil is made?

Money is not “numbers”. Don’t convolute our present fiat system with money. You repeatedly attempt to do this. Stop it.

Here you go. You didn’t even comprehend what I said. And your arguing in circles again. Your wrong, you don’t understand what I said, nor do you understand what you responded with. In fact I think you just copied and pasted some random crap from one of your comments above. Did you actually read anything we posted or are you just re-organizing your same points and re-posting them.

At any rate it’s late I’ll have to read the rest of your response to tomorrow. Though judging by your first few comments it’s obvious you have nothing intelligent to respond with.

It’s like trying to teach calculus without knowing addition.

P.S.

This is false. The very people who wrote the laws into existence would disagree with you. Think about what you post before posting it.

224

I believe this is called ‘the method of tenacity.’

225

You didn’t refute what Laughing Man Said. You posted another non-sequitur comment. And it’s apparent you don’t even comprehend the folly of your post. We understand that 3% of the money supply is paper money. That doesn’t magically change the laws of nature and economics.

Stop studying mysticism and come back to reality. STop watching youtube and read a book.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT NON-SEQUITUR MEANS?

226

He’s making me go insane! lol…

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Type O, Chemical Substance

Goods

possessions, esp. movable effects or personal property.

articles of trade; wares; merchandise: canned goods.

Numbers clearly cannot be a good because they do not consist of any known chemical substance. When we use numbers for money they can only be used to enhance fair trade or be used for a tool for theft by deception, as it is now.

Apples combines the raw materials of the earth, with mankinds labor, and knowledge to produce the Ipod. That is how all wealth is created. Same thing with pencils.

What determins the value of a federal reserve note? That quality of the paper is the same, same weight same ink, same demensions? Isn’t what determins the value the number printed on it? Numbers are what we use for money. Stop it ??? Stop telling the truth? Numbers is all we use for money. Any thinking person can see this.

I’m the one open to talk about

the facts about our monetary system when all you want to talk about is some flawed theory.

Can you show me a single law that called check book money legal tender? In the 1990’s congress had one hearing about making checkbook money legal tender. I’ll save you the work and let you know that check book money is not legal tender. It is only money by pure mental deception and is not called money by any law, or called legal tender.

228

Because he was right, the paper currency is part of our money supply but it only represents at best 3% of it but that paper currency never increases or decreases the money supply because it only moves into circulation by drawing down on a checking account. All paper currency is a portable book keeping entry. That’s it.

229

The MZM has been moving upward though. Bank reserves have gone to over 1 trillion. You are incorrect to think that money supply doesn’t increase or decrease due to paper increases.

230

Question - What does it take to fix an economy?

Answer - Austrians.

231

The money supply only increases when new loans are made because that is the only way under our current monetary system that money is actually created.

232

It seems like whenever I bring up a retort to your argument, you drop it and agree with me. Let’s see how far I can push this:

Origins of Money

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I am not in agreement with tom that money creation starts with checkbook money. Before the fed could initially create any checkbook money it had to meet a reserve requirement under the federal reserve act.

I do not believe interest is the real problem because interest represents time if you are loaning something you own. I consider government spending the big problem because that is why the fed monetizes and inflates.

I do think present money represents debt/government obligation. I haven’t seen any explanation of how it is not representative of government obligation. Government does not produce anything.

I have created a quick photoshop illustration to clearly articulate my position providing any detractor something tangible to refute.

Money.jpg
Money.jpg800×1000 203 KB
Money.jpg
Money.jpg800×1000 203 KB

234

This is partially true, before the banks can create any checkbook money the banks must meet a reserve requirement? What does that reserve requirement consist of? Another book keeping entry.

http://www.theantechamber.net/VkDocuments/DeptOfTreas/DeptOfTreasPage3.html

But most importanly we don’t use the reserves for money, and some local bankers told me that they don’t even pay much, if any attention to them anymore. Reserves are mearly a way for central control over the National Banks (federally chartered banks) and not the state chartered banks. State Chartered banks are 100% controlled by the state laws and those vary from state to state.

I believe you when you say that you don’t believe interest is a problem. Most people believe it’s a blessing because that is what most of us have been taught our entire lives, but if interest isn’t a problem why is it everyone complains about high interest rates? Clearly its a problem for them. If it doesn’t affect our lives why do people try to get the lowest rate possible? Interest is the cost of doing business, along with taxes. The government creates no money therefore does not “spend” it. The government first BORROWS the money (or taxes it away from people who already borrowed it) then spends it. But all that money was always created by an extention of credit by a private commercial bank.

The Law says otherwise. When they passed took us off the gold standard they passed a law saying all this money will be BACKED by the FULL FAITH AND CREDIT OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. Credit is an agreement to pay something later. The only collateral the government has to pay with is your property. Literally all of these debts (private, government, business) are backed with our property as a mortgage to the banking system on a promise to pay that they never have to honor, and the only way out of this debt is to put money into circulation that is free of debt.

I’m not saying they passed good law, they passed bad law. Now it’s up to us to start passing good laws that benifit the people and repeal the bad laws designed to give the banking system a business that can’t fail (not for the big guys because they operate on a different set of rules).

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Currently, we have frac-reserve fiat currency from a central bank. Remove all that and your objection goes away.

I want you to read the answers already given to you.

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Removing the central bank or the fiat currency(which doesn’t exsist until the bank deposits do) still won’t put any debt free money into circulation. Can you please tell me how getting rid of a central bank and fiat currency (all currencies are fiat) will solve the debt problem?

Are you supporting a replacement fiat currency?

237

The last two times the central banks were eliminated the debt always grew because all the smaller banks continued to create money via an extention of credit.

The only exception to this MAY be when Lincoln issued the green backs, but even those went on the books of the government as a debt, but they didn’t go into circulation as a debt to the people.

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Tomodope - why must you rely on government controlled currency, can’t the market choose its own? Are you familiar with the effects of fractional reserve banking on the money supply and business cycle? Are you on any medications we should be aware of?

239

filc wrote:

Q). So you want to believe the fairy tail that all money is dept.

A). Virtually all money is indeed created as debt. Here is a quote from Robert Hemphill, past Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta that explains this fact:

"If all the bank loans were paid no one would have a bank deposit and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous: if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is.

It (the banking problem) is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."

Q). You want the nation to forgive all dept and make the money neutral. Since the money is only a unit of exchange and therefore only a representation of a nations wealth, and since the actual money really wasn’t dept at all but a representation of that nations wealth nothing happens. Step one literally does NOTHING to the state of the economy.

A). No, I am not suggesting that the principal debt be forgiven. I am suggesting that the government create the money the same way that banks do…through journal entries; for free. If banks are able to create money for free, why can’t the government? The private Federal Reserve is charted to create and control our money.

When the government borrows money from the banks, they provide bonds or some type of collateral. The banks back nothing. As Thomas Edison said: “if a nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. If the bond were no good, then dollar bill would be no good either.”

Step 1 eliminates $4.5 trillion dollars in debt to the private Federal reserve. It extinguishes the debt - the money ceases to exist. Our national debt goes from around $12 trillion down to $7.5 trillion. Money is created when loans are issued and debts incurred. Money is extinguished when loans are repaid.

Larry

240

The government only prints the non-redemable private bank notes and then sells them directly to the banking system for the cost of printing. Indivdual banks can still print their own notes if they chose. There is nothing stopping them they just can’t print FR notes.

Yes, FR banking ALWAYS creates a shortage of money once time and interest kick in on borrowed money, and the core function of FR banking is to transfer all of the wealth of the producers over to the non producers. Fractional banking is the cause of the business cycle because it’s impossible to have a recession unless the private banking system creates it. The entire system will always lead to financial ruin. If the problem is all our money is created as interest bearing debt then the solution is the opposite. Create money free of debt and be able to have the money system benifit the people not the banking system.

Nope. Clearly my mind if free from any of this bullshit you’re been tricked into believing. I’m still waiting to hear what your solution is. You’re telling me that the legal tender laws are the problem but legal tender doesn’t increase nor decrease our money supply. How would getting rid of all legal tender laws get rid of the debt?