Austrian & Keynesian Theories Vs. Mathematical Facts

I only have three questions for the austrian theory, which I think they ought to answer.

Where is the gold going to come from?

How much gold is going to be needed to have it work as a general meduim of exchange?

How is it going to be put into circulation?

Here are some references for you. I hope this helps.

4 Of the Most Important Quotes in Economics:

  1. “…the actual creation of money always involves the extension of credit by private commercial banks.”
  • Russell L. Munk, Assistant General Counsel, Department of the Treasury
  1. “Money is created when loans are issued and debts incurred; money is extinguished when loans are repaid.”
  • John B. Henderson, Senior Specialist in Price Economics, Congressional Research Service, Report No. 83-125 E
  1. “Thus, the money that one borrower uses to pay interest on a loan has been created somewhere else in the economy by another loan.”
  • John M. Yetter, Attorney-Advisor, Department of the Treasury
  1. “Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon.”
  • Robert H. Hemphill, Credit Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta

Isn’t this contradictory -he pays his principal and interest yet is unable to get out of debt?

Even if he takes out another loan he can still get out of debt so the debt cycle just continues over and over again I don’t see it necessarily destroying society -technically wages are debts yet mankind is better off with them.

I think the answer is obvious :slight_smile:

(no hard feelings my snarky comment was just a joke)

Why does it need to come from any where? It already exists. Silly question.

Where in the austrian creed to we mandate gold? Austrian’s argue that whatever unit of exchange that will be most widely used is emerged as a market entity.

Why does there need to be a quantity? What kind of nonsensical asinine concept do you have to make you think we all need exactly X units of gold to function. Also why does it have to be gold? Why not silver? Why not platinum? Why not a mix? Who knows what will be realized when the violent imposition of a fiat monetary system is removed.

Quantity is not important and if you think it is you have least economic understanding here on this forum. There is enough silver and gold for the entire globe to operate with and everyone would have everything he needed to trade and a fuly functional capitalist system could function.

You tell me, how much gold SHOULD everyone have based on your arbitrary assumptions? Maybe you should pull out your trusty calculator for this one.

How did it originally get put into circulation? How did paper money get put into circulation? How do cigarette’s get put into circulation? This detail is not for us to decide. We are not gods or socialist dictators. Consumers demand how it gets circulated, not us.

Do you know what an economy is? Because based on your 4 “important” quotes before it seems you missed the boat somewhere. Also quotes aren’t really references. Do you mind citing an actual periodical? I can site you dozens of books =p. You need not leave this site to reach them.

FYI, Economics is not the study of monetary theory. Monetary theory is but one sub-catagory.

Why does it need to come from any where? It already exists. Silly question.

Because if we are going to have any of it we would need to get some of it. If we can’t get any of it then why even discuss using it because history has proven that the people never wanted to use the gold for money and they always preffered the paper over the gold. Any study of history shows this.

Where in the austrian creed to we mandate gold? Austrian’s argue that whatever unit of exchange that will be most widely used is emerged as a market entity.

Then the Austrians should praise bank credit as the best medium of exchange because there is no law calling it money but it’s what we use for money. It’s so widely used that you can purchase anything in the world, including gold.

Why does there need to be a quantity? What kind of nonsensical asinine concept do you have to make you think we all need exactly X units of gold to function. Also why does it have to be gold? Why not silver? Why not platinum? Why not a mix? Who knows what will be realized when the violent imposition of a fiat monetary system is removed.

There needs to be enough quantity in order for soceity to function. If farmers can’t plant crops (takes money) then we all starve. If there isn’t enough money to buy gas we can’t drive, ect… Why would you want to use metals anyways? If the people preffered metals so much right now they would just use the U.S. Coinage all the time anyways. People preffer using the checking accounts, it’s easier, more convient, and it works. P.S. We don’t have a fiat money system, even Ben Bernanke will tell you that. We have a credit money system with a very small fiat component.

You tell me, how much gold SHOULD everyone have based on your arbitrary assumptions? Maybe you should pull out your trusty calculator for this one.

There simply isn’t enough gold ever mined in the history of the world to make it work as a medium of exchange. I don’t hate gold or love it, but I’ve done the math. YouTube Byron Dale “can we go to gold” he did the math, and it is correct. There just isn’t enough. The principles of gold/silver under the 1792 free coinage act is what is important.

How did it originally get put into circulation? How did paper money get put into circulation? How do cigarette’s get put into circulation? This detail is not for us to decide. We are not gods or socialist dictators. Consumers demand how it gets circulated, not us.

Gold always went into circulation as a wealth under the 1792 free coinage act. When the banking system switched us off from allowing gold/silver to be freely monetized they switched our money from an evidence of wealth to an evidence of debt. It matters not what you use for money but the principles under which it functions. But the paper money still wasn’t the true money in the system, it switched over to “bank credit” or the banks “promise to pay” which is still what we use for money today.

Do you know what an economy is? Because based on your 4 “important” quotes before it seems you missed the boat somewhere. Also quotes aren’t really references. Do you mind citing an actual periodical? I can site you dozens of books =p. You need not leave this site to reach them.

FYI, Economics is not the study of monetary theory. Monetary theory is but one sub-catagory.

I have no idea what an economy is, how about you tell me, and while we are at it can you tell me what the fuel that drives an economy is, and how that fuel can be used to only benifit a few people at the top or benifit all of society. What is the most effective tool for transfering all the wealth of the people into the hands of a few? Can you tell me what wealth is and the only way it can be created?

When did I say anything about monetary theory, I am stating monetary fact? Its the way our system works.

"The government claims to hold about 250 million oz of gold…"

the above was stated in a mises blog thread some time ago. i dont know if it is true or not. there may be as much gold in the hands of people as well - in other forms than coin or bullion.

i believe a dime weighs about 2.5 grams. the dime seems to me a usable practical coin. i am able to read it

250 million ounces of gold could yield about 3 billion 2.5 gram gold coins.

i gues they could be traded electronically..like a lot of things now. but there if you needed them.

i dont know very well the preference of previous gold/silver money users. they obviously had some appeal.

people used gold and silver coins - a lot from what i read.

would it be more accurate to say that people wanted gold and silver as money and paper as a corresponding substitute for their gold and silver amounts?

ha ha! tell another one!

ha ha, keep going!

a lolstorm is brewing !

will it never stop, my sides are aching

Tomozope,

You should read some of the material on mises.org before posting here.

…just a suggestion.

would it be more accurate to say that people wanted gold and silver as money and paper as a corresponding substitute for their gold and silver amounts?

The people preffered the paper because it was more convienent, just as people today preffer swiping a plastic card to debt this checking account -vs- writing checks or paying with cash, or coin.

Why wouldn’t the people preffer the easiest and most conveinient method of payment?

a lolstorm is brewing !

Do you really believe that a banks deferment of payment is money?

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Isn’t this contradictory -he pays his principal and interest yet is unable to get out of debt?

Even if he takes out another loan he can still get out of debt so the debt cycle just continues over and over again I don’t see it necessarily destroying society -technically wages are debts yet mankind is better off with them.

I think the answer is obvious :slight_smile:

(no hard feelings my snarky comment was just a joke)

fakename,

It’s true indivually you can get out of debt but collectively we cannot. The only way for you to pay off your personal loans is to capture somebody else’s loaned principle so you can pay your interest. All you’ve done there is roll the debt over onto someone else.

Giant_Joe,

What would you suggest I read?

  1. Human Action, particularly the section dealing with money and the media of money.

  2. Just about any article about the nature of theory of pure interest.

  3. Any article regarding time preference and its influence on the structure of production.

That’s my short list and no I’m not Joe. Just someone who thought it would be nice to give a basic rundown of some important theoretical frameworks.

ladyattis,

can you link them for me?

this credit money…is it accounted in dollars? are dollars legal tender? are the FRN paper dollars the very definition of fiat money?

the answer to all these questions and more; is yes.

this credit money…is it accounted in dollars? are dollars legal tender? are the FRN paper dollars the very definition of fiat money?

There is no statutory definition of the dollar. “dollars in your checking account” are not legal tender, FRN’s are legal tender. Any coin or currency produced by the government are legal tender including federal reserve notes.

No, this money usually enters someone else’s bank account. The only time the FRB process is reversed is when people withdraw currency and don’t put it back into a bank account i.e spend it if you live in america.

771 grains of silver. Statutory doesn’t mean legitimate though.

Can’t edit. Last post should say i.e not spend it if you live in america.

Umm sorry. I only had two pages of this thread showing up when I posted.