basis of 'human action' defective?

“Mises insisted that the logical structure of human minds is the same for everybody.”

First off, one cannot simply jump to the conclusion that everybody has the same logical structure to their mind without proof of such… especially when one plans on basing their entire theory of economics on this shaky conclusion.

Secondly, how many people do you know who are illogical? I happen to know quite a lot. Logic, much like mathematics and language, is a learned behaviour. This is evident by the fact that there’s a fairly hefty list of logical fallacies that most people fall prey too when attempting simple logic. Everything from circular reasoning to argument from authority. Mises could have just as easily looked around and said “Well the linguistic structure of people’s minds is the same for everybody” because everybody around him spoke the same language… but this would have also been a false premise because language is obviously learned, and if you go to a different locale, different languages are spoken.

Unfortunately, it seems that logic is significantly less important in our day to day lives than language is, because it’s something that’s sorely lacking in a significant chunk of the population.

Either way, as I’ve stated, basing the entire premise of your economic system on the shaky foundation of “I think all people are like X” without proof… is setting yourself up for a fall… it’s academically laughable, and it’s highly illogical.

When mises says “rational” or “logical” he means purposeful. By rational or logical, you mean optimal. They are different meanings.

Either way, as I’ve stated, basing the entire premise of your economic system on the shaky foundation of “I think all people are like X” without proof… is setting yourself up for a fall… it’s academically laughable, and it’s highly illogical.


You are completely right! Good thing Mises does no such thing.

Again, he’s not showing any proof of his statement. You can theorize that human beings all have the same “logical structure” to their minds, but without proof of such a statement, you’re on shaky ground when building an economic theory based on such a claim.

I’ll use an analogy for you: If I made a claim that all people liked chocolate (because everyone I’d observed liked chocolate), and I based an otherwise flawless economic theory on this axiom… a theory, I should add, that would fix all the world’s economic problems if it worked as I’d theorized, but would cause countless more problems if it didn’t… one could claim that my theory was flawless all they wanted to, but when it turned out that not everyone did like chocolate, the theory would fall to pieces… because the very philosophical axiom I based it on was the presumption that everyone liked chocolate.

This is what Mises has done: He’s taken an unproven axiom and based his entire theory around it. If the comment about the nature of the human mind was simply an aside, and not central to his economic theory, then it would be forgiveable as it would not impact his theory at all… but this statement that I’ve pointed out as a bare assertion, is the very core of his entire economic theory.

See the problem now?

Minds all have the same structure in that action is purposeful. It is fundamentally different from whether someone likes chocolate.

I think what Mises is saying is that the logic of human action is universal: people act to achieve their ends.

This doesn’t imply that every human brain is physically the same, but that they function in the same manner.

^ ^ ^ ^ Sieben beat me to it.

But not every action is purposeful. I don’t cough because I want to achieve something.

Yes, the bolded part is wrong.

Do you not act purposefully? Was the purpose of your post not to get your opinion across?

Of course, certain assumptions are necessary to turn purposeful action into economic theory, namely that other humans act purposefully, which can never be known. One can only know their own mind. However, this is a very reasonable assumption and is hardly less reasonable than assumptions necessary for the natural sciences.

We understand that you are saying that he built his economic theory on an untenable foundation, and we understand what they could mean for his economic theory. We aren’t disputing that building a system on top of an untenable foundation could mean that the entire thing could topple down at any moment. It is pretty uncharitable to act like that is what we are arguing about, because nobody reasonable would ever disagree with that.

What we are saying is that he didn’t build it on top of an untenable foundation. We don’t think that your argument that it is untenable is correct. We think that it is a strawman. The argument is about whether the foundation is untenable, not about whether an untenable foundation could mean the destruction of a system.

The definitions of words aren’t immutable. They aren’t absolute. Some people use the same words in the same contexts differently than other people. It might seem like it would be superfluous to say something like that, because it seems so obvious, but it unfortunately isn’t. It is one of the most common and dangerous errors that people make to just carelessly assume that they are talking about the same thing as somebody else just because they are using the same word.

Well, you are making that mistake right now. First, he didn’t even say anything like that everybody is “logical”. That is just a ridiculous caricature of his position. But he said something similar to that, which apparently is what is tripping you up. He assumed that the “logical structure” of everybody was uniform, that everybody in the world thought with the same basic “logical structure”. He didn’t mean that everybody in the world didn’t make mistakes, act stupid, or commit logical fallacies, but that everybody uses means to achieve ends, prefers A to B, and so on, which is to say the least a claim much less shocking.

What are you going to do next? Are you going to tell me that Mises was being unrealistic when he assumed that everybody was rational? The irresponsibility that it shows to make these sorts of attacks is almost just unbelievable to me. I seriously suggest that you think and read a little bit longer next time before you post something like this, because it sounds like the extent of your research was just skimming over a few sentences out of context.

Even if I pretend that you didn’t completely butcher your interpretation of what he meant by the “logical structure”, you are still misguided. He never even intended to have proved that the logical structure of everybody is the same as everybody else. He in fact said the opposite. He said that it just “works” to act as if everybody else has the same logical structure, but that it may be admitted that it is impossible to tell whether they do or not.

If it isn’t purposeful, it by definition isn’t an action.

You do caugh because you want to achieve something. What you wanted to say is that most of the time you dont caugh conciously.

Yes, people make logical mistakes. But that doesn’t imply anything about the logical structures of their minds.

From Human Action:

. From time
immemorial men in thinking, speaking, and acting had taken the uni-
formity and immutability of the logical structure of the human mind
as an unquestionable fact. All scientific inquiry was based on this as-
sumption. In the discussions about the epistemological character of
economics, writers, for the first time in human history, denied this

proposition too.

Marxism asserts that a man’s thinking is determined
by his class affiliation. Every social class has a logic of its own. The
product of thought cannot be anything else than an "ideological dis-
guise" of the selfish class interests of the thinker. It is the task of a
“sociology of knowledge” to unmask philosophies and scientific
theories and to expose their “ideological” emptiness. Economics is a
“bourgeois” makeshift, the economists are “sycophants” of capital.
Only the classless society of the socialist utopia will substitute truth
for “ideological” lies.

This polylogism was later taught in various other forms also.
Historicism asserts that the logical structure of human thought and
action is liable to change in the course of historical evolution. Racial
polylogism assigns to each race a logic of its own. Finally there is
irrationalism, contending that reason as such is not fit to elucidate
the irrational forces that determine human behavior.

Such doctrines go far beyond the limits of economics. They ques-
tion not only economics and praxeology but all other human knowl-
edge and human reasoning in general. They refer to mathematics
and physics as well as to economics. It seems therefore that the task
of refuting them does not fall to any single branch of knowledge but
to epistemology and philosophy. This furnishes apparent justifica-
tion for the attitude of those economists who quietly continue their
studies without bothering about epistemological problems and the
objections raised by poIylogism and irrationalism. The physicist does
not mind if somebody stigmatizes his theories as bourgeois, Western
or Jewish; in the same way the economist should ignore detraction
and slander. He should let the dogs bark and pay no heed to their
yelping. It is seemly for him to remember Spinoza’s dictum:

“Indeed, just as light defines itself and darkness, so truth sets the standard for itself and falsity.”

However, the situation is not quite the same with regard to eco-
nomics as it is with mathematics and the natural sciences. Polylogism
and irrationaIism attack praxeology and economics. Although they
formulate their statements in a general way to refer to all branches
of knowledge, it is the sciences of human action that they really have
in view. They say that it is an illusion to believe that scientific re-
search can achieve results valid for people of all eras, races, and social
classes, and they take pleasure in disparaging certain physical and
biological theories as bourgeois or Western.

But if the soIution of
practical problems requires the application of tbese stigmatized doc-
trines, they forget their criticism. The technology of Soviet Russia
utilizes without scruple all the results of bourgeois physics, chemistry,

and biology just as if they were valid for all classes. The Nazi engi-
neers and physicians did not disdain to utilize the theories, discoveries,
and inventions of people of “inferior” races and nations. The be-
havior of people of all races, nations, religions, linguistic groups, and
social classes clearly proves that they do not endorse the doctrines
of polylogism and irrationalism as far as logic, mathematics, and
the natural sciences are concerned.

So, bottom line, what Mises is saying to the OP from the grave is. “How come you are asking this on an economics forum? Why don’t you go to a Physics or Engineering forum and point out that they are making a rather silly and unproven assumption, mainly that their logic is true in all times and places? All those bridges will just blow up the moment someone who thinks differently than you guys walk across it.”

I can see how you would get that if you only read the bolded part.

I love how you take the meaning out of the term “logical structure” using rhetoric. I’m not sure if Mises did the same, but if he did, then he shouldn’t have used the term in the first place. “Logical” implies logic, not action.

A lot of logic is about unchangeable facts about our minds. If you haven’t ever studied logic other than the popular writings about fallacies and faulty reasoning, I can understand why you would think that “logic” isn’t a good term to use in that situation.

Scineram,

Mises distinguishes between impulsive action and purpuseful action early in Human Action.

“everyone uses means to achieve ends”

This is a excessively simplistic view of logic, if that’s what he truly meant. In fact, it’s pure rhetoric… “people do stuff to make stuff happen” … well of course they do, and it really has no bearing in economic theory. Thing is, people also do stuff for no reason. What you’re talking about here has nothing to do with logic. Animals also do stuff to make stuff happen… so do plants. Should we include their actions and desires into our economic equations as a result? Furthermore, should we classify their actions as “logic”? Logic isn’t an action… it’s a thought process. Mises, unless he was entirely ignorant to the definition of the term logic, was plainly claiming that the structure of everybody’s thought process is the same… which is a bare assertion at best, and just plain wrong in the grand scheme of things.

“prefers A to B”

Children often don’t have preferences between similar things at all… at least not until they start becoming influenced by advertising. In fact, I read an article once that was discussing how it’s the primary job of the advertiser to create preference where there would otherwise be none, as preference isn’t a natural state of mind for human beings.