Can You Define Natural Rights as a Meaningful Concept?

Agreed.

So far we have:

To say that an action is “objectively wrong” is to say that a person should refrain from that action regardless of whatever preferences they may have or choose.

Now I still wonder what meaning of should you’re using.

This makes sense, and it seems to amount to saying that, for one thing, objective ethical statements are not consequentialist ethical statements.

I see what you mean here, but what does this achieve? Also, strictly speaking, I can say, “I don’t want to have preferences” and nullify the statement. Having preferences does not contradict the idea of not wanting to have preferences. (And I know this technical point may not be important, but just in case it is.)

By the way, Zavoi, is there anything you don’t find satisfactory about Hoppe’s and Rothbard’s conceptions of objective ethics? Do you find them flawed, so you decided to come up with a better derivation?

Hi AJ,

The only correct answer to your challenge is “No.”

Your challenge, no matter how you word or reword it, begs the question, “What is a right?” Qualifying the word “right” with “natural” or “divine” or “unalienable” or “human” or any other emotionally invested adjective is nothing more than obfuscation.

I have recently written at length about the folly that many libertarians are inordinately susceptible to and that so much otherwise wonderful intellectual energy has been completely wasted on throughout history. Your challenge is a pure example of this eternal waste of time and energy.

The basis for my perspective rests in the fact that no matter how you define it, it not possible to define an abstract concept such that it becomes a real world entity. This is a black hole of that nearly all libertarians are sucked into; this is the defining limitation of the LP’s effectiveness.

For those who are still open to having their illusions shattered, the article explaining this fallacy of definition can be found at:
Destructive Distractions: Proper Labels and Precise Definitions

More to the point of your flawed challenge however is another recent article that asserts and defends my perspective that no rights exist aside from those being exercised, defended or challenged. All other notions of “rights” are merely intellectual navel gazing and another great way for libertarians to practice self-marginalization. This article can be found at:

I know this reply is way out of alignment with your expectations and experience has shown this will elicit harsh emotional responses from many in the herd…but I don’t think that will hurt them. :slight_smile:

I’ll await this “herd” with anticipation, considering it is non-existent.

Natural Rights: Any right that Tom Hanks had in the movie castaway while stranded on the island is a natural right.

What makes you think my challenge isn’t rhetorical? Take a look around the thread and you’ll see I’m not necessarily far from your position in bold.

!=

“Define Natural Rights as a Meaningful Concept”

Unless of course you define meaningful as only real world entities. Counter Example: Mathematics.

Twisted, your point is too subtle for the positivists to grasp.

I like to dream big :slight_smile:

A natural right exists inherently unless it is being actively denied through coercion. Simply choosing not to exercise a right does not mean that it does not exist. If you are the only person alive on the planet you have all your natural rights b/c there is no one to prevent you from using them. Also note, that no one gave these rights to you (since you are the only person) and you don’t have to even be aware of the concept of rights to have them, nor do u need to exercise, defend, or challenge them. They exist inherently.

For ease of use, I like to refer to all “rights” as the “right to use violence”.

I realize it’s a positive right, but I find it much easier to work with, and still in keeping with notions of property rights and the right to be violence free, so to speak.

Negative rights basically boil down to “Thou shalt not commit violence”. One would clarify this statement by saying, “You can’t take, use, or destroy another persons property against their will”. But that’s not sufficient, because we have to make an exception for someone defending their property against another, because that person would indeed have the right to use violence to defend himself against an assailant. So, a would-be victim can kill a would-be attacker, even though the victim is destroying the attackers property: his life. So, we would generally say that violence is forbidden, except for specific circumstances. Therefore, I find it much more meaningful to focus on our positive right to use violence in those particular circumstances, because that’s ultimately where the argument is headed anyway.

So, if natural rights are the right to use violence, then the question becomes, when is it acceptable to use violence? We have a right to use violence for the purpose of defending our person and property against violence.

You can frame all supposed rights in this context as well. The right to health care is the right to use violence to obtain health care. Given competing rights to use violence, does might make right? If not, then why does one right take precedence over the other? How do you resolve identical rights to use violence in obtaining a finite resource? For instance, if two people need a heart transplant, and there is only one heart, who gets it? Why?

The nice thing about the right to defense of property is that allocates rights in a way that is mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive, virtually eliminating contradictions, and minimizing the rightful use of violence. Whereas competing views turn every interaction into a clash of titans.

“Thou shalt not initiate violence,” fixed.

Sorry, I posited what I believe our natural rights are, not what a natural right is.

Natural right - ways that man may use creation to suit his purposes that are permissible or impermissible to him as granted by the natural order (as opposed to permission granted by a political body).

If you say, “I believe in natural rights”, you open yourself up to the responsibility to define and justify all of the terms and statements in the above definition.

So, AJ, I will not be defining “natural order”, because that’s part of the general debate over “natural rights”. Some will take natural order to mean “God”. Some will take “natural order” to mean some state of equilibrium that man and creation, for whatever reason, seem objectively predisposed to.

I also like this definition because it loosely corresponds with God’s first command to mankind to have dominion over the earth, which I like.

I don’t disagree. Now, it doesn’t follow that the obverse of that statement is true. There could be other things that are forbidden. However, most would agree that we may, in fact, do whatever we want so long as we do not initiate violence. So, you’re statement is more complete, because it highlights the one action that is impermissible, whereas my statement is less complete, because it only highlights one of the infinite actions that are permissible.

That being said, I still like to use “right to use violence” because it puts all competing rights theories in the same context. I’m comparing apples and oranges when I compare my right to be left alone with your supposed right to health care. It’s apples and apples when I compare my right to use violence to defend my property with your supposed right to use violence to take my property for the purpose of satisfying your own desire for health care. Who has the greater justification to the use of force? That’s much easier, in my opinion, to conceptualize and to debate.

I may have given the impression that I’m going to be deriving objective ethics in this way, but I’m not, so it’s not really that important. More to the point…

I would say that “should” means “is obligated to,” but now it is incumbent upon me to explain what an “objective obligation” is.

The “ethical non-cognitivist” position holds that whatever obligations are, they are never something objective, and so the notion of an “objective obligation” is meaningless. And remember what the original motivation was behind adopting this position: to refute the argument for libertarian ethics.

So when the non-cognitivist says, “‘Objective should’ does not correspond to any meaningful concept,” the libertarian can ask, “In what sense am I obligated to act in accordance with that belief, rather than in accordance with its negation?”

As you said, the non-cognitivist can mean this obligation to be a command (“Do X”) or a consequentialist statement contingent upon some other purpose (“You should do X if you want Y”). But since commands do not express propositions (i.e., commands are non-cognitive), a simple command can be ignored by anyone who is engaged in argumentation (just like you would ignore a statement such as “Hooray for X!”).

What about the consequentialist interpretation? A consequentialist obligation can be nullified by a change in preferences (or else it would be an objective obligation, which is supposedly meaningless). But then the libertarian would simply declare that their preferences are such that the obligation to act in accordance with ethical non-cognitivism does not apply to them, and so they will continue to act in accordance with the opposite belief (by defending their property, hiring a PDA, etc.).

So, the non-cognitivist either admits the meaningfulness of at least one objective obligation (the obligation to act in accordance with ethical non-cognitivism), or they make their argument into something that can be disregarded by the libertarian. Either way, the original goal (to refute libertarianism) is not achieved.

It may seem that this is just a re-hash of the earlier argument that showed that both E and ~E imply ~W. But that was just to show that it doesn’t matter whether or not a particular action is an objective ethical issue; whereas here we step back even further to show that anyone who denies the very meaningfulness of W cannot argue that non-libertarianism is in any way preferable to libertarianism: the best they can do is be neutral with regard to one versus the other.

I’ll answer because you asked, but I don’t want to get too far off topic. (If anyone is really interested in this subject, you can start a new thread or PM me.)

Rothbard explains his natural law theory as follows:

The natural law ethic decrees that for all living things, “goodness” is the fulfillment of what is best for that type of creature; “goodness” is therefore relative to the nature of the creature concerned…

The natural law, then, elucidates what is best for man - what ends man should pursue that are most harmonious with, and best tend to fulfill, his nature. In a significant sense, then, natural law provides man with a “science of happiness,” with the paths which will lead to his real happiness. [The Ethics of Liberty, ch. 2]

This is the “fulfillment of human nature” approach, which runs into the problem I mentioned earlier: it is simply not true that Rothbard’s norms maximize happiness for every person (consider luxurious dictators and people with cushy government sinecures). Hoppe writes,

It has been a common quarrel with this [natural law/rights] position, even on the part of sympathetic readers, that the concept of human nature is far “too diffuse and varied to provide a determinate set of contents of natural law.” [A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism, p. 235]

(I suspect that he is being diplomatic by avoiding direct criticism of Rothbard.)

The argument I have given in this thread more closely resembles Hoppe’s own, at least in the beginning where he demonstrates the existence of objective ethics by showing that it is contradictory to deny them. I have just tried to be extremely nitpicky and detailed in order to handle objections; but Hoppe would probably find most of this so obvious as to be trivial and uninteresting.

The problem I have with Hoppe’s theory is when he brings in the “universalizability principle”. His theory of individual rights rests on this, but the closest he comes (in what I have found) to a proof of this principle is this passage:

Quite commonly it has been observed that argumentation implies that a proposition claims universal acceptability, or, should it be a norm proposal, that it is “universalizable.” Applied to norm proposals, this is the idea, as formulated in the Golden Rule of ethics or in the Kantian Categorical Imperative, that only those norms can be justified that can be formulated as general principles which are valid for everyone without exception. Indeed, as argumentation implies that everyone who can understand an argument must in principle be able to be convinced of it simply because of its argumentative force, the universalization principle of ethics can now be understood and explained as grounded in the wider “apriori of communication and argumentation.” [TSC, p. 131]

Any manner of rules could be proposed that are universalizable and are consistent with the practical act of argumentation, but which are inconsistent with the positions that Hoppe argues.

For example, “Rich people must give some money to the poor”: such a norm could conceivably be followed without leading to the extinction of humanity, and it seems at first face to be a “universalizable” norm. Hoppe, believing in absolute first-occupier property rights, would probably say that this norm is not universalizable because it makes a distinction between rich and poor people; still, it is not clear how this distinction any more detracts from the validity of this “socialist” norm than the distinction between first-occupiers and latecomers detracts from the validity of the “capitalist” property rights that Hoppe advocates.

In short, without a more substantive investigation into the notion of “universalizability,” I don’t think that even the most open-minded non-libertarian is likely to be convinced.

Zavoi,

Thank you for this wonderfully edifying post. You and AJ have shown in this thread how to provide light in a topic too often characterized by heat and fury illuminating nothing. The Hoppe info is especially invaluable, since much of his AE literature in offline. It must drive Juan crazy to see a fellow objective ethicist being so open, helpful, and civil with members of the “church of subjectivism”, but this evil subjectivist is deeply grateful for it.

Not universal, the rich and the poor have different sets of rules.

First occupiers and latecomers are subject to the same rules.

Thank you for your insights Zavoi. Succinct and powerful.

The architect of quantum mechanics wrote “Insistence on the postulate of complete logical clarification would make science impossible.”

Hoppe needn’t, in my opinion, meet an impossibly high standard of complete logical clarification. But I believe he does need to answer relatively obvious questions that his theory suggests. At its strongest, the argumentation ethics leaves at least one crucial question unanswered, and to me this indicates that the theory hasn’t been thought out well enough or developed thoroughly enough.

I will refer to his presentation of his theory as they were presented in chapter ten of The Economics and Ethics of Private Property, pages 203-208.

The primary point Hoppe makes is that in proposing a non-libertarian ethic, the proposer contradicts himself. On pages 204 and 205, Hoppe refers to the idea that the proposer of a non-libertarian ethic contradicts himself in eight or nine separate instances, e.g.:

in violation of demonstrated preference, contradict, belied by, falsified by, contradicting, logically incompatible, incompatibility, impossibility proof, etc.

The obvious meaning is that one who proposes a non-libertarian ethic is doing something contradictory on a fundamental level. They can propose such a non-libertarian ethic, in words, in thoughts, in writing, etc., but doing so results in some kind of self-refutation which Hoppe is struggling to capture and conceive.

When I approach the argumentation ethics as a proposed theory of the ultimate foundation of libertarian ethics, I tend to grant one of Hoppe’s premises that there is something “wrong” with non-libertarian ethics. The intuition that something is amiss with statist or socialist ethics is what binds libertarians. The theoretical rationale explaining this is each theorist’s specific theory striving to give a rational account of this fundamental intuition (natural-rights, natural-law, argumentation ethics, eudaimonism, flourishing, utilitarianism, etc.). Hoppe’s theory is one such theory. So I’m generally willing to grant Hoppe that there is something contradictory about non-libertarian ethics, and then move on to examine his explanation of exactly what this is. Obviously, not everyone is willing to grant this, but I believe his theory has a fundamental problem even if we grant that non-libertarian ethics, proposals for them, and the act of proposing them, are contradictory.

Hoppe provides no demonstration or explanation of how a ‘contradiction’ impacts the happiness or well-being of the one maintaining it. For the sake of argument, we could just assume that contradictions are painful or harmful to the individual who “has” them. But to me, this seems a shirking of the primary responsibility of the ethicist. In the context of Hoppe’s theory, a demonstration of exactly why one might want to avoid contradictions is not a minor point. It is the main thing, because that is the “penalty” he puts forth that results from proposing a non-libertarian ethic. It is thus incumbent on Hoppe, as ethical theorist, to demonstrate why contradictions are to be avoided.

But the problem for both Hoppe and Rothbard as trained economists, is that neither thinker has constructed a theory of human happiness/unhappiness as a basis from which they could demonstrate how various ethical acts (such as proposing a non-libertarian ethic) impact the happiness of the individual actor. The quote you provided from Rothbard is his vision of natural law, as a ‘science of happiness.’ But The Ethics of Liberty is not a theory of a science of happiness, it is a proposed libertarian legal code, and essentially Rothbard’s blueprint for which ethical acts he believes should be punished.

Hoppe and Rothbard have or subscribe to a theory of economics, and they have or subscribe to a theory of libertarian law. But neither thinker has or subscribes to an articulated ‘science of happiness’, a theory that “provides man with…the paths which will lead to his real happiness.”(EOL p.12) Hoppe and Rothbard were trained economists who then tried to rationalize (provide a rationale for) a libertarian legal code. They weren’t interested in ethical phenomena per se; they were interested in politics and law. Their focus was changing the acts that people receive legally approved punishment for, from what they are now (from a social-democratic basis or justification) to something else (to a libertarian basis or justification). In essence, they want(ed) to change the “punishment structure” from a social-democratic theory to a libertarian theory. This is not ethics per se, but only one sub-realm of ethics:

“It is not the intention of this book…to elaborate a natural-law ethic for the personal morality of man. The intention is to…elaborate that subset of the natural law that…deals with…“politics,” i.e., with violence and non-violence…to set forth a political philosophy.” (EOL p.25)(italics added)

Hoppe and Rothbard were/are not interested in ethics, they are interested in political philosophy. And this probably has something to do with the fact that neither thinker thought it necessary or important to develop or articulate a theory or science of happiness which could indicate how various ethical acts impact an individual’s happiness. So the primary shortcoming of Hoppe’s theory is that even if we grant the idea of “contradiction,” this falls short of a demonstration of how this impacts the contradictor’s happiness, and thus falls short of showing the contradictor why he may want to avoid contradicting himself (by abstaining from proposing nonlibertarian ethical systems during argumentation).

This particular shortcoming is likely common to most or all libertarian “ethics” theories that are really political theories. The same problem is seen with Rasmussen. O’Neil writes:

“Rasmussen is consious of the problem of the man who escapes the dire consequences of the moral maxim(s) of the…natural law”:

And quotes Rasmussen:

“A human can, of course, act in a manner inconsistent with the standards set by his nature and not be literally dead, but such “non-death” cannot be considered life or, at least, successful human life. To ignore the principles that human nature requires and to attempt to live without regard to them in any manner one might choose is to opt for an existence as a metaphysical misfit…”

O’Neil continues:

"Rasmussen threatens the moral malefactor with the possibility of becomming “a metaphysical misfit”—reminding one of the W.C. Field’s admonition “Don’t be a moon-calf! Don’t be a jabbernow! You don’t want to be one of those things, do you?” At the risk of belaboring a point: Why oughtn’t one to be a “metaphysical misfit…” ?

The main point I’m making is that much of libertarian ethics theory is political theory requiring an ethics theory foundation. The ethics theory foundation is what connects the various ethical “acts” of the individual, to some impact on the individual’s happiness (well-being, flourishing, eudaimonia, etc…)

Theories such as Hoppe’s and Rasmussen’s ulitmately tell people: “you contradict yourself,” or “you are a metaphysical misfit.” But as these theories are at root political theories, and not theories of ‘a science of happiness,’ (not ethical theories rooted in an articulated theory of happiness/unhappiness), they are ultimately unable to demonstrate or conceive exactly how doing or being those things are harmful to the individual concerned. The same will apply if one were to tell another: “doing X will diminish your flourishing.” This is meaningless without a rigorous, unambiguous definition or conception of flourishing.

In the older presentation of Hoppe’s theory referred to above, Hoppe is clearly struggling to arrive at some imperative or mandate that nature or human nature will impose on one who maintains a contradiction. But as he is working without a developed theory of happiness, he is unable to find it. Such a theory does not exist in economic doctrine nor in political philosophy.

Regarding your passage:

"This is the “fulfillment of human nature” approach, which runs into the problem I mentioned earlier: it is simply not true that Rothbard’s norms maximize happiness for every person (consider luxurious dictators and people with cushy government sinecures). Hoppe writes,

It has been a common quarrel with this [natural law/rights] position, even on the part of sympathetic readers, that the concept of human nature is far “too diffuse and varied to provide a determinate set of contents of natural law.” [A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism, p. 235]

(I suspect that he is being diplomatic by avoiding direct criticism of Rothbard.)" (bold and underlined added)

This is essentially a one sentence refutation of Rothbard’s natural-law approach. It’s placement in Hoppe’s book and it’s brevity speak for themselves.

I bolded and underlined “happiness” above to reinforce my point that when we are dealing with ethics, ultimately this refers to happiness and unhappiness. Then, the theory proposed can only be as accurate and as consistent as the underlying theory of happiness referred to. Thus, it is not optional whether or not to have a theory of happiness and unhappiness when dealing with ethics theory. The question is only one of the accuracy and consistency of the theory of happiness one is working with.

I close with a quote from an important social thinker. : - )

“…every ethic, no matter how strict an opponent of eudaemonism it may at first appear to be, must somehow clandestinely smuggle the idea of happiness into its system.”

(Epistemological Problems of Economics)

answer this please, is the issue over whether a non-libertarian ethic could be justified without contradiction, something that could only be settled through a process of rational argumentation , or need it not be ? (i.e. is there another way?)

I fail to see what happiness has to do with the issue of morality and political philosophy apart from as a corollary