Capitalism is fundamentally Flawed(Logically?) Discussion with Rob Huesdens

In both first and even now in third world countries excessive caloric intake is more of a problem. There is also a huge “immigrant” community that gets paid below minimum wages under the table which has consistently been able to save and aquire their own capital.

And you don’t think that has anything to do with populism/labor movements (social services [not capitalized, meaning churches, food banks, general charity, and state social services]?

Your still trying to make a laborer vs capitalist class distinction

I would kindly ask you to tell Lilliiburne and Libertychild to stop doing it as well. And I never said anything about classes. I made a distinction in people individually. To not make that distinction is just burying your head in the sand.

All professional capitalists work for someone. It may even be the consumer, shareholder, whatev..

Fair enough. Owners working for consumers i would say indirectly. But point taken.

It’s the pessimism that you represent which the poor often subscribe to

What pessimism? Did I say it was hopeless? I merely listed some things outside of their control, that are holding them back; namely that corporatism has consolidated most meaningful capital into illegitimate hands. It is a real problem that I see not how you can deny. You deny that 1% of the populace holds over 30% of its private wealth? You deny that this is due to corporate socialism? Once again, I am against all forms of tyranny, even the ones that benefit business.

If people aren’t buying because they cannot afford it, the price will drop eventually to the point that they do

In a pure capitalist system it will. Are you saying there is real capitalism anywhere in this world? It seems you are acting as if leftists are the only ones who use state cooercion to their advantage. Are you saying there are not businessmen who will let workers starve to increase their profits, and then use the state to maintain their position of power against market forces?

Incorrect. People are hiring. They just aren’t hiring you

I said the same; they either are not hiring, or I am overqualified. This is where you need to differentiate theory from reality. In theory, there are thousands of oppurtunities for me. In reality, I haven’t found them yet, ergo, I am stuck in my job until I do. I can, but I have not. Theory vs reality.

See, you are still trying to win an argument (easily seen in your “thanks” comment where you take one place I agree with you and disregard the rest of the post) To me it is not an arguement, it is an understanding. As long as you deny that I am not a professional capitalist, and that I am stuck in my job… or conversely affirm that I am a professional capitalist and not stuck in my current job… we will never come to a better understanding. You can feel you won an argument all you want. You won against an opponent that wasn’t playing.

Once again, I did not start this argument. But I did go back and read that chart you showed me

Also, economic freedom is not necessarily the same thing as “conservative” or “small government”: “good government” often pushes up the economic freedom score).

http://baselinescenario.com/2010/05/27/heritage-index-good-government-vs-less-government/ is what is meant by “good government.”

it is likely that the causation works both ways: higher GPD per capita means better education (because of more investment in education) and better education means higher GDP.

So I guess we should have free universal education right?

You really should read these things before you link them.

I know socialists. You’re just saying that companies shouldn’t force their workers to work 12 hours in a day. However, if the worker wanted to, nothing should stand in the way of his working 12 hours a day.

Was that directed at me or Mr. Heusen?

Your argument is that someone else should provide you a job and pay you a “decent” wage, and/or provide you with an alternative lest you feel coerced (exploited) by this lack of choices

Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion? As far as I know, I never made any assertion as to what should happen.

Given that, you would be willing to swing the stick and fetch the bananas yourself, cause you’re not that lazy. Got it.

All the valuable stuff on this planet is already owned by someone else?! All the good ideas (sticks) have already been used? The horror! By definition, something is valuable exactly because it is already valued and pursued by many. Tough luck. Try a universe devoid of scarcity next time around.

You, sir, are insulting and intellectually dishonest. Keep willingly misrepresenting my positions all you want. I will not respond to you anymore. Good day sir.

No sir, at least for now I’ve no reason to believe that.

I’m saying that is a mute point. The state can no more change the function of the market than it can change man’s natural behavior. The only thing it can do is place a gigantic rock in the middle of the river. All that happens is a disruption in the river, and activity flows around it. This is the market, and the state is the rock. You cannot stop markets. You can disrupt them for a time, but eventually something must give. Not even the state has the power to change the laws of physics, scarcity, time, and the need to occupy scarce objects over time to satisfy needs.

I know you won’t disagree with that point however it goes deeper then that. If one does not properly understand the states roll in markets they will often come to erroneous conclusions as to how far they can directly effect the market.

IE the state cannot break the laws of scarcity simply by signing in some law. The state does not effectively change these fundamental facts of reality which the market acts apon.

Or, and I mean no offense, your doing something wrong.

Call me trying to “win” an argument or what have you. :slight_smile:

I simply stated the data was interesting. The author made numerous errors, more then just that. Coorelation, not causation. :slight_smile:

Nice try though mister I’m not trying to “win” an argument. ! :slight_smile:

Heusen.

I’m saying that is a mute point. The state can no more change the function of the market than it can change man’s natural behavior. The only thing it can do is place a gigantic rock in the middle of the river. All that happens is a disruption in the river, and activity flows around it.

If we’re considering the river as capital accumulation/market forces (and getting the most people into it, freely… the goal of marketism right?) and the state as the rock diverting the river… I would see the labor movement as the forces of erosion and lift that uprooted the rock and sent it downstream.

To think that the average worker would have the benefits he has today (safe working conditions, clean water/air, not being forced to work 12 hrs a day [i see a lot of people thinking of that backwards, as if you’re not allowed to work overtime. People didn’t fight for 8 hr days to tell a man he couldn’t work 12 hrs, people still to this day work that long. The fought for 8hr days so they werent forced to work 12 hrs to keep their job] medical benefits, public education [whether or not you agree with it being public]) these benefits would be reserved for the upper some 25% of the populace without workers demanding them from owners. Owners who, as soon as the workers started to see they were being mistreated, not just by the current factory owner they worked for, but from the whole industrial “class,” summoned the power of the state to violently repress them.

There’s a reason socialism is so appealing to workers. If you want to overcome that, you will have to show that your system will the better one to uplift their situation. Telling them “take what you get and shut up” will not really win you many friends. I think we can start by acknowledging that if it was up to the industrialists, America would still be a 3rd world country with half the populace illiterate and malnourished.

ugh… this has wildly diverged from the topic. An argument for another day perhaps.

BUt yes, I acknowledged there must be something I am doing wrong in finding more gainful employment. That is why I am trying to go back and get my masters (a degree in anthropology is really only good for going on digs, and I kinda have obligations here

Like I said, don’t mistake ignorance for laziness. It isnt easy figuring out how to get rich when your whole family has been poor for generations. Some do it, more power to them. But it is by no means easy.

Socialism should have been about removing obstacles to social mobility and kept itself isolated from thereon. Worker self-management, wealth redistribution, etc. and other outgrowths of a basic demand for real improvement are flops with only limited success and always with capitalists lending their capital to the effort (Tito’s Yugoslavia, Attlee’s Britain, Anarchist-Socialist Catalona, PASOK’s Greece, and the list goes on.. and on…).

The best “socialist” examples are the most “capitalist” of “socialism” in practice. Coincidence? No..

Do they have shares today, or do they have to buy them? Are you reffering to free shares?

One problem I see with the premise that a “pure” laborer is predestined to be stuck as a laborer and cannot become a capitalist is the fact that real wages rise in a capitalist economy. Over time it becomes ever more easier for a person who has continually labored to save. It is true that not everyone will save the increase in their real wage over time, but the choice to save and purchase stock or undertake his own entrepreneurial ventures is a real choice in capitalism.