Capitalism = Destruction?

I have a BBA in Finance and studied economics under some pretty amazing professors. I was always an ardent supporter of capitalism, but over the years I have come to question its long-term sustainability,

I believe that the flaw of capitalism is its foundation - profit. While this powerful incentive has driven many incredible innovations and greatly increased the standard of living of everyone in the world (in capitalist nations, anyway), I foresee that it will eventually cause the pillaging of the Earth’s resources and concentration of wealth in the hands of the elite few.

Capitalism seems to assume that the Earth’s natural resources are infinite, and it relies upon eternal consumption and growth to function. This is quite simply and logically unsustainable. Many may argue that the market controls the use of resources and keeps over-use at bay…but this doesn’t seem to be the case. Humans have already burnt through 1 trillion barrels of oil, (concentrated energy that took 100’s of millions of years to form) in a relatively short time-frame. Profit drives this eternal consumption of the oil.

In capitalism, wealth is naturally concentrated in the hands of the few. It takes money to make money right? America has turned into an ownership society, where wealth is passed down generation to generation. Sure, some of it is squandered, but anyone with half a brain can make plenty of money off $1 million.

All in all, I believe capitalism has served the world very well, fueling enormous growth and prosperity, some of which has “trickled down” to the little guys. Unfortunately though, it seems it has run its course. Our world faces huge economic problems that I do not believe can be solved by debt-based monetary systems combined with free-market capitalism. I think we, as a world, should go back to the economic drawing board. Please feel free to share your thoughts.

I honestly can’t tell if this is a legitimate post or not.

Oh I think it’s legit. I could see how this would be a plausible way to think if you never looked deeper:

“Many may argue that the market controls the use of resources and keeps over-use at bay…but this doesn’t seem to be the case. Humans have already burnt through 1 trillion barrels of oil, (concentrated energy that took 100’s of millions of years to form) in a relatively short time-frame. Profit drives this eternal consumption of the oil.”

what I mean is it sounds a bit too canned…like it was taken from somewhere and just posted here, not from someone with legitimate concerns or an interest in discussing it or learning anything, but instead as more of a trolling.

Quite possibly, and then there’s all the tags. But hey, we gotta assume good faith at first. Still, I don’t even know where to start with this post. He pretty much lost me at “amazing professors.”

You have fallen prey to a lot of popular fallacies.

You’re forgetting the other half of the foundation: losses and bankruptcy. This is a common mistake. The punditry constantly cite America as “a capitalist nation” but how can we be capitalist when bankers can bet trillions of dollars, keep the profits if their bets pan out but shift the losses onto the public if it turns out they’ve bet wrong.

Think back to your ECON 101 class… what happens when the costs of a decision are borne by another person while the benefits of a decision accrue to the decision-maker?

You’re right if you’re talking about the current system in America which is mislabeled “capitalism.” It is not really capitalism, it’s a mercantilism-fueled empire. Protections for the big boys, heavy taxes, tariffs and regulations for the rest of us and troops spread throughout the world to “protect our markets.” Fencing your turf with guns and warships is not capitalism, it’s colonialism.

You seem to be forgetting your ECON classes… capitalism assumes the precise opposite, that most goods are scarce and in short supply relative to the demand for them.

Capitalism doesn’t rely on eternal consumption, human beings do. We need to eat and be clothed, and so on, in order to be alive at all. Capitalism nowhere depends upon growth that’s a purely modern bastardization of captialist theory.

The market establishes through prices at all times between all resources and all lines of production and consumption an equilibrium. The next unit of resource tends to go wherever it is most highly demanded. Preservation of natural parks and so on is also a demand and it will be balanced by the market with all other demands. The real demand for nature preservation is probably vastly exaggerated by its proponents.

Oil is an available resource. If it does “get used up” then we will simply use the next-best available energy source, say, natural gas or coal. If we “use up” all the hydrocarbons on Earth, then we can invest in other ways of capturing the energy of the Earth and Sun. Note that our current energy consumption (including oil) is just a tiny percentage - well below 1% - of the total solar energy which is incident to the Earth. The mania about over-consumption of oil is just a popular mania.

Actually, in mercantilism and mafia-economics, wealth is naturally concentrated in the hands of the few. In capitalism, wealth has no natural tendency to aggregate or dissipate. However, we can see that without the means to aggregate wealth that are employed in the current system (violence, threats of violence), the real wealth concentration in a free society would be much more dispersed and egalitarian.

Inheritance is not now and never has been the problem with society. Quite the opposite, inheritance is a foundational building block of society. Without it, capitalism would never have come about.

Well, the very thought of “going back to the drawing board” is either futile or terrifying. If you mean we should try to persuade everyone on the planet not to act according to their self-interest, you are engaging in futility. If you mean we should try to force everyone on the planet not act according to their self-interest, it is terrifying.

You have correctly observed the symptoms of the problem in modern society. You have incorrectly diagnosed their causes which lie in the systematic aggression and fraud that has infused our social order. We tolerate an out-of-control Federal government that is waging war with every tinpot dictator on the planet while entitlement-spending and fat-cat bailouts at home are combining to bankrupt the government which, through its bond issues, is determined to take down the entire American public with it.

The mugger will have a much harder time stealing from you if he doesn’t have a weapon and you do. It is true that Wall Street is plundering America but this is because they have a weapon in their hand… that weapon is the Federal Reserve, an agency created by the US government which permits the biggest US banks to expand and contract the money supply to suit their purposes.

Wall Street could only bankrupt itself unless aided and abetted by the Federal Reserve. We need to disarm these thugs by shuttering the Federal Reserve. They will naturally go bankrupt in short order because they are not businessmen, they are crooks. Forced to earn money through productive enterprise, they will have no choice but to move on to some new con.

Clayton -

The tags were just one more piece of it. Notice how they aren’t on topic but are just random economics-related things. The last half of them aren’t even separated…which is exactly how they would be if someone just copy-and-pasted a pre-packaged post.

I can assure you it’s a “legitimate post”…now did you have something to add, or do you just reply to people’s posts with one sentence observations?

@hanky: Any responses to my post?

Clayton -

There is the Schumpeter (and Marx too) concept of Creative/Destruction which you may find interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction

Though it does nothing to affirm your thoughts.

Other than that, I think you may be missing what Subjective Value theory is - a key concept to understanding human activity. You seem to be asserting values that can not really be thought about or discussed or thought of in any scientific or logical way.

Easy there, chief. We get enough trolls/spam around here to make my doubt not at all unfounded.

And I can assure you my post was not an attempt to avoid addressing your OP, as (as I would hope one would guess) there is virtually nothing you bring up that hasn’t been addressed ad nauseum, even in this very forum. I would be inclined to locate and link various threads for you to look through which would cover all of your concerns, but based on your snipe here and the sheer number of enormous fallacies embedded in that first post, I’m not so sure it would be a productive use of my time.

However as you can see, Clayton has been kind enough to take the time to address literally every point you raised (which again, he himself, as well as various other members of this forum have already explained more times than they care to count).

I look forward to your responses to his explanations.

Thank you Clayton, as you appear to be the only one so far who has responded intelligently. Back to the profit discussion:

You’re forgetting the other half of the foundation: losses and bankruptcy. This is a common mistake. The punditry constantly cite America as “a capitalist nation” but how can we be capitalist when bankers can bet trillions of dollars, keep the profits if their bets pan out but shift the losses onto the public if it turns out they’ve bet wrong.

Think back to your ECON 101 class… what happens when the costs of a decision are borne by another person while the benefits of a decision accrue to the decision-maker?

I agree, America is not a truly capitalist nation, in fact I don’t know of any nation on Earth that is. But that doesn’t refute the fact that profit is so powerful an incentive that businesses will chase after it at any cost. The only consequences for immoral/illegal actions are borne after the fact through litigation. This is especially a problem in public companies, as the boards and executives are detached from the company and any resulting litigation. The only thing keeping the profit-chasing in check in a capitalist economy is, like you said, losses and bankruptcy. Sure, the threat of these would be a powerful limit on profit-chasing in a capitalist society that was populated by only small privately-owned businesses, but it doesn’t work so well on huge multi-national corporations that make everything from toothbrushes to furniture to loans, etc.

“Capitalism seems to assume that the Earth’s natural resources are infinite..”

You seem to be forgetting your ECON classes… capitalism assumes the precise opposite, that most goods are scarce and in short supply relative to the demand for them.

and it relies upon eternal consumption and growth to function.

Capitalism doesn’t rely on eternal consumption, human beings do. We need to eat and be clothed, and so on, in order to be alive at all. Capitalism nowhere depends upon growth that’s a purely modern bastardization of captialist theory"

So the check on limited supply for ANY good is simply pricing? I agree that it does indeed work on renewable resources and manufactured goods. However, oil is another story altogether. No one knows for certain the exact volume the Earth holds, for one. Also, it is literally in 90-95% of everything we use and consume. My concern is that we rely on it so heavily for transportation when it’s used in so many other applications and doesn’t seem to have a readily available substitute. It seems impossible that capitalism could accurately price a non-renewable resource like oil, when the volume is unknown and it is so highly depended upon. I don’t see how “market forces” could do anything but have a knee-jerk reaction once production slows to a snails pace. I would say it’s a dangerous fallacy to simply call over-consumption of oil a “mania.” It is a genuine concern…like I said, not just for energy, but for the world’s food supply.

“In capitalism, wealth is naturally concentrated in the hands of the few.”

“Actually, in mercantilism and mafia-economics, wealth is naturally concentrated in the hands of the few. In capitalism, wealth has no natural tendency to aggregate or dissipate. However, we can see that without the means to aggregate wealth that are employed in the current system (violence, threats of violence), the real wealth concentration in a free society would be much more dispersed and egalitarian.”

I have to disagree with this. Wealth builds upon wealth. This is especially true in capitalism, where companies merge and acquire, overall making strides through technology, supply chain improvements and production efficiencies to overall make products more affordable. This obviously has two sides: cheaper products but the companies are typically owned by fewer people, concentrating the wealth. This also applies to the next section I talked about, inheritance. How is inheritance the “foundational building block of society?” All it appears to do is, like I said, concentrate wealth. A man gets wealthy, then passes it on to his offspring, providing them with a competitive advantage over everyone else who didn’t have rich fathers. The offspring have no real incentive to innovate when they can just run the gifted company, acquire some real estate, build a strip mall, etc and just kick back and relax. Why work hard when your father’s money is making money for you?

“All in all, I believe capitalism has served the world very well, fueling enormous growth and prosperity, some of which has “trickled down” to the little guys. Unfortunately though, it seems it has run its course. Our world faces huge economic problems that I do not believe can be solved by debt-based monetary systems combined with free-market capitalism. I think we, as a world, should go back to the economic drawing board. Please feel free to share your thoughts.”

I agree it would be futile and/or terrifying to do either of the proposed things you said. I wasn’t suggesting either was even possible, just that it’s good to at least discuss these issues. My main point is that we should look back at the very foundations of our economic models. For example, why does profit have to be the incentive? Could we come up with an incentive that would be good for human-kind?

And by the way, sorry if my concerns have been discussed before, and I just tagged stuff so maybe more people would see it…I’m new to the site. Yes, I did have some “amazing professors”, but we didn’t sit around and talk about economic theory all day in class…mostly discussed things that were relevant to the times. Obviously, I didn’t attend Harvard, lol

Capitalism and economic theory are complex ideas that rely upon many variables. Sorry if my original post was rambling, but if I were to discuss all my thoughts and ideas about the subject, it would go on for pages and pages. I merely sought to address some of my concerns in tidbits..if you don’t know where to start with my post, start anywhere! Clayton provided a good response to each of my points, but if you would like to debate any one point, go ahead! I’m already enjoying the opportunity to talk to other people about this, as most people I know can’t even hold a conversation about economics..

A classic example of “the world would be better for people if it didn’t include people”.

Profit is not foundational to capitalism. Private ownership is foundational to capitalism. Profit is merely what happens when people are free to go about the business of making their lives suck a little less. People, not capitalism, engage in trade to better their own situation. People, not capitalism, produce things that better others’ lives in the hope of trading for things that will better their own. Profit is not a capitalist incentive, it is a human incentive.

Your idea is to replace the natural desire of others to improve their own well-being with your desire to reshape the world in a way you prefer. You’re not alone. The whole history of technocrats and invasive “do-gooders” are on your side. At least be honest and don’t try to act like putting your desires first is best for all of human-kind.

I suggest you define the term capitalism. I will assume you define it as a free market, because otherwise why are you posting this here? But beware that this definition is only used by ‘right’-libertarians. Marxists and their ilk take a different definition.

"A classic example of “the world would be better for people if it didn’t include people”.

Profit is not foundational to capitalism. Private ownership is foundational to capitalism. Profit is merely what happens when people are free to go about the business of making their lives suck a little less. People, not capitalism, engage in trade to better their own situation. People, not capitalism, produce things that better others’ lives in the hope of trading for things their better their own. Profit is not a capitalist incentive, it is a human incentive.

Your idea is to replace the natural desire of others to improve their own well-being with your desire to reshape the world in a way you prefer. You’re not alone. The whole history of technocrats and invasive “do-gooders” are on your side. At least be honest and don’t try to act like putting your desires first is best for all of human-kind."

Profit is just another word for “people…making their lives suck a little less”…and yes it is indeed a foundation of capitalism. Look up the definition sometime. It is the driving force of capitalism for christ’s sake. “…technocrats and invasive do-gooders?” Is that your way of covertly calling me a libtard? Lol

Evilscepter:

You didn’t really add much to the conversation with your “no’s”…but I will try to address your questions/concerns.

"Capitalism seems to assume that the Earth’s natural resources are infinite,and it relies upon eternal consumption and growth to function.

On the contrary the price mechanism serves to ration finite resources. If there was no scarcity, we could have communism. The economy doesn’t need to expand, but it tends to because everyone wants more stuff."

Sorry, I should have said capitalism (combined with debt-based monetary system) seems to assume… Still, yes price does serve as the mechanism to ration finite resources. But therein lies a problem with oil…no one knows just how finite it is. Another major problem - “everyone wants more stuff.” Does that not concern anyone on here? When is enough enough? We already have 7 billion people on this planet of finite resources, with nearly half of the people suffering from a lack of fresh potable water and steady food supplies. Yet some people are able to afford obscene luxury, like billion dollar, 27-story homes…make sense much?

The fact that we are using finite resources is not an argument against using finite resources. What exactly would you have us do with them?

Of course it’s not an argument against using finite resources. We must use them intelligently though. We burn millions of barrels of oil every year, just in the USA, simply getting harvested food from the farms to your supermarket. I thought economy was supposed to mean efficient…this is the opposite of efficient. Oil has so many uses in our modern day, that we cannot continue to just burn it up getting from point A to point B every day; we will be in for a rude awakening one day if this does not change.

“It takes money to make money right?”

Again, no.

And how so? Oh oh I know, since we can exchange our labor for money, right? Take an average guy, no skills, no money, he can work at a minimum wage job and build up a large amount of wealth? How? Ok, I revise my statement, “In the vast 99.9999% of cases, it takes money to make money.”

Understatement of the millenia. ‘Capitalism’ is the only reason why the ‘little guy’ isn’t still working the fields while his wife is dying in child birth to a baby who will most likely die by age 5.

Really? Capitalism is the only reason? The Enlightenment had nothing to do with it? Technological advances had nothing to do with it? I guess all technology owes its roots to capitalism. After all, Albert Einstein, Alexander Graham Bell, Thomas Edison, they were ALL in it for the money…

How can you combine debt-based money with the free market? The two are the polar oppisite of each other.

The “free market” operates in a debt-based monetary system, created by our wonderful Federal Reserve. They aren’t polar opposites, as they are not even in the same category. One is an economic model, the other a monetary system..

I agree, America is not a truly capitalist nation, in fact I don’t know of any nation on Earth that is. But that doesn’t refute the fact that profit is so powerful an incentive that businesses will chase after it at any cost. The only consequences for immoral/illegal actions are borne after the fact through litigation. This is especially a problem in public companies, as the boards and executives are detached from the company and any resulting litigation. The only thing keeping the profit-chasing in check in a capitalist economy is, like you said, losses and bankruptcy. Sure, the threat of these would be a powerful limit on profit-chasing in a capitalist society that was populated by only small privately-owned businesses, but it doesn’t work so well on huge multi-national corporations that make everything from toothbrushes to furniture to loans, etc.

Firstly, the modern corporation as we know it is a product of the state. Subsidized, shielded, and free of competition, it is able to balloon in size while not having improving it’s products. Free markets would likely see a much smaller business size on average, simply because maintaining such a large business is too difficult without privilege. Economy of scale applies, but is counterbalanced by executive distortion and delayed pricing responses. This is substantiated and documented at the beginning of the 20th century. These weaknesses of oversizedness are actually the entirety of the motives behind the progressive movement, the rise of the progressive-corporate structure. It’s purpose was to protect large inefficient firms from the many small efficient ones with legal and regulatory shielding.

Secondly, how exactly does it not work as well on huge multi-nationals? What exactly would be the problem in suing a M-N?

So the check on limited supply for ANY good is simply pricing? I agree that it does indeed work on renewable resources and manufactured goods. However, oil is another story altogether. No one knows for certain the exact volume the Earth holds, for one. Also, it is literally in 90-95% of everything we use and consume. My concern is that we rely on it so heavily for transportation when it’s used in so many other applications and doesn’t seem to have a readily available substitute. It seems impossible that capitalism could accurately price a non-renewable resource like oil, when the volume is unknown and it is so highly depended upon. I don’t see how “market forces” could do anything but have a knee-jerk reaction once production slows to a snails pace. I would say it’s a dangerous fallacy to simply call over-consumption of oil a “mania.” It is a genuine concern…like I said, not just for energy, but for the world’s food supply.

Thus here enters the beauty of the entrepeneurial system. Prices in good A rise. Consumers cannot continue to purchase A. Demand increases for alternatives to A, such as B, T, or V. The ratio cost of starting a project to the profit from the end of project lowers and lowers until entrepeneurs see that it is a good idea to sate the needs of the market. Investment and research proceed into whatever (solar, geothermal, hydro, gases, etc.) This is how, eventually, man will be weened off of oil.

I have to disagree with this. Wealth builds upon wealth. This is especially true in capitalism, where companies merge and acquire, overall making strides through technology, supply chain improvements and production efficiencies to overall make products more affordable. This obviously has two sides: cheaper products but the companies are typically owned by fewer people, concentrating the wealth. This also applies to the next section I talked about, inheritance. How is inheritance the “foundational building block of society?” All it appears to do is, like I said, concentrate wealth. A man gets wealthy, then passes it on to his offspring, providing them with a competitive advantage over everyone else who didn’t have rich fathers. The offspring have no real incentive to innovate when they can just run the gifted company, acquire some real estate, build a strip mall, etc and just kick back and relax. Why work hard when your father’s money is making money for you?

Wealth only builds upon wealth if it employs force or satisfies the market. We have never known any system but that which does not exclude the former option.

What clayton is talking about (I think, if not, then forgive me for speaking in your place) is that inheritance is the logical implication of private property. Private property, he states, is the building block of society.

I agree it would be futile and/or terrifying to do either of the proposed things you said. I wasn’t suggesting either was even possible, just that it’s good to at least discuss these issues. My main point is that we should look back at the very foundations of our economic models. For example, why does profit have to be the incentive? Could we come up with an incentive that would be good for human-kind?

Profit doesn’t have to be an incentive. You just have to brainwash the population of earth to serve something other than themselves. But good luck having that turn into a positive outcome. Free Market Capitalism is the best use of this selfishness because there is no monopoly. Every other system will give monopoly to selfish people. FMC pits these selfish people (as we all are), to the benefit of the customer! Hooray!

I am not calling you a libtard, I just want you to understand that your issue isn’t with capitalism. Your issue is with people pursuing their own interests because you don’t like the results of it. Your ideas stated above, regardless of what political ideology you come from, are exactly those of everyone before you that also tried to reinvent the world in their preferred manner. Of course, they all claimed it was for the good of their fellow man, too. And I’m sure they all believed it. Don’t you think it’s a little strange to claim that removing the freedom to own (or at least to use belongings in a way you disagree with) is better for everyone?

Profit does not require capitalism. Capitalism does not require profit. How can it be foundational if this is true? Yes, people pursue personal profit; this is true with or without capitalism. Yes, people use the things they own (capital) to help produce further profits. But this isn’t due to the nature of capitalism, this is due to the nature of people. At best you can argue that if we remove capitalism, people will not own anything to help improve their productivity, and therefore civilization would collapse and we’d use less resources. This is true enough, but it’s hardly “best for all human-kind”.

cap·i·tal·ism

/ˈkæpɪtlˌɪzəm/ [kap-i-tl-iz-*uh*m]

noun

an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

edit: Fixed the dictionary copy/paste problem.