http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Commando-Style-Terror-Plot-Targeted-Europe--104009409.html
We get it…pull out of iran, afgan…
but…do you not now need intelligence agencies in place to prevent this horrible plot?
I am really interested in those who believe governments were not involved in 9/11 at all…
for those who believe governments were involved in 9/11…this is really obvious…governments help to fund these groups and prop them up…so they can then “protect” people from them.
Or maybe there weren’t any real terror plots and all these western governments just made them up so they can further their agendas. First everything was based out of Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iranian support, and now everything is planned in Pakistan. They can just keep making up shit like this to do whatever they want and kill whoever they want. US propaganda has just been so damn good after 9/11 that this will all continue till its not financially feasible. Who knows when that’ll be.
At the very least they could stop associating these terror plots with Islam since targeting innocents is strictly forbidden in Quran. But why do that when a story about how a bunch of broke ass people from Afghanistan are plotting to take over the entire world and make them live according to their Jihadi/Sharia(among other scary arabic words) principles.
Well, what means “involved”. Governments sell weapons to various countries and people (including terrorists), so in some sense government itself is terrorist organization or at least fund and profit from them. Problem is that people believe it brings justice and freedom to them. That’s another story.
So in some sense it can be said that US gov was involved in 9/11. I mean, US government and it’s perpetual wars and expansion was the main REASON terrorists attacked in a first place. But I very doubt there was some grand conspiracy of some kind, that many 9/11 nuts believe in (I call them nuts, because their stupidy is usually amazing, when they claim that there were no planes at all).
So, sort of agree with OP.
“I am really interested in those who believe governments were not involved in 9/11 at all…”
If you are suggesting the U.S. government attacked the U.S, give me evidence (with links) showing U.S. government involvement in 9/11.
“Or maybe there weren’t any real terror plots and all these western governments just made them up so they can further their agendas.”
Associated Press: Europe has been a target of numerous Islamic terror plots - the deadliest being the Madrid train bombings in 2004 when 10 shrapnel-filled bombs exploded during rush hour, killing 191 people and wounding about 1,800. A year later, suicide bombers killed 52 rush-hour commuters in London aboard three subway cars and one bus. In 2006, U.S. and British intelligence officials thwarted one of the largest plots yet and one that changed air travel forever - a plan to explode nearly a dozen trans-Atlantic airliners . . . A three-day siege in 2008 by gunmen in the Indian city of Mumbai left 166 people dead and raised fears of similar low-budget types of attacks around the world - a departure from the Sept. 11 terror attacks in the United States that brought down the Twin Towers in 2001.
“First everything was based out of Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iranian support, and now everything is planned in Pakistan. They can just keep making up shit like this to do whatever they want and kill whoever they want.”
Islamic terrorists are capable of movement.
“At the very least they could stop associating these terror plots with Islam since targeting innocents is strictly forbidden in Quran.”
Wrong: Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don’t kill them.)
Please note that so far no government agency has confirmed this plot. Even newspapers were very quick to point out “The source is Sky News. Authorities have so far refused to confirm this piece of news”.
The recent London fiasco is still fresh in the memory: the six men arrested for allegedly “plotting to murder Pope Benedict XVI” were actually just making some jokes in poor taste about the Pope’s armored car. Somebody overheard them and immediately called the police. These men were released without charges (luckily making bad jokes is not a crime. Yet). Scotland Yard is much embarassed about this and is doing its best to avoid a six figures lawsuit.
While I do not believe in conspirancies it’s not easy to imagine that some media source next to the US goverment wanted to keep European “allies” on the edge. It’s no mystery Washington thinks NATO is not enthusiastic enough about the war in Afghanistan and apart from France (or to be more precise, her vehemently pro-Israeli president) nobody wants a confrontation with Iran. Europeans are a strange lot: they are scared of a turban-wearing ghost on the top of a mountain in the Hindu Kush but have no problems with swarms of Muslims entering their countries and acting like they own the place. They have no problem with their own boys bombing villages half a world away to “keep us safe” but won’t even speak their mind about Islamic fundamentalists lobbying (succesfully) to have halal slaughtering legalized and halal meals served in schools.
I only wish to be safe in Japan or Mexico when the reality check will hit.
So you think its more plausible that they were behind those terror plots, I think its more plausible those very governments were behind it. Why? Because they’re perfectly capable of such a thing and are the only ones that gain anything from it. It certainly wouldn’t be anything out the ordinary for any of them to kill innocents. The definition of people’s truths seem to come from bias one way or another. Wtf is an Islamic terror plot anyway? Anything like secular terror plots? Democratic terror plots? What a stupid way to simplify the complexity of this world.
And the CIA is capable of much much more, including movement.
Hey who gives a shit about context these days anyway right?
Let me throw in the verse before and after the mangled one you just quoted (2:189) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
And since I’m quoting let me add
(60:8)Allah does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. Allah loves the equitable
(4:90)…Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then Allah gives you no excuse to fight them
If it isn’t obvious at that point that innocents can’t be harmed then what else can I do.
“Europe has been a target of numerous Islamic terror plots - the deadliest being the Madrid train bombings in 2004 when 10 shrapnel-filled bombs exploded during rush hour, killing 191 people and wounding about 1,800. A year later, suicide bombers killed 52 rush-hour commuters in London aboard three subway cars and one bus. In 2006, U.S. and British intelligence officials thwarted one of the largest plots yet and one that changed air travel forever - a plan to explode nearly a dozen trans-Atlantic airliners . . . A three-day siege in 2008 by gunmen in the Indian city of Mumbai left 166 people dead and raised fears of similar low-budget types of attacks around the world - a departure from the Sept. 11 terror attacks in the United States that brought down the Twin Towers in 2001.”
So, in your opinion, we really need these huge intelligence agencies, like the CIA, right? To find these things out and keep us safe?
Without these “intelligence” agencies, there would be no way to infiltrate these groups and find out where their next innocent targets would be.
It would be totally insane to think that secret parts of our government make sure money and resources and anything else they need gets funneled to these terrorists…so the intelligence agencies will have more justification in recieving billions of dollars in funding, even in the mist of a depressed economy when schools are being cut back. That would be insane to think that, right?
“So you think its more plausible that they were behind those terror plots, I think its more plausible those very governments were behind it. Why? Because they’re perfectly capable of such a thing”
Individuals and governments are capable of terrorism. If you have evidence that governments have staged false flag operations on and/or after 9/11, I would like to see it (with links to the sources).
“and are the only ones that gain anything from it.”
Islamic terrorism is retaliation against U.S. foreign policy. Jacob Hornberger, founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation, has repeatedly argued this well-established fact.
“Wtf is an Islamic terror plot anyway?”
Islamic terrorism committed by Muslims.
Islamic terrorism is terrorism committed by Muslims aimed at achieving varying religious or political ends in support of their co-religionists who they believe are oppressed or who threaten their chosen religion or way of life; for example, Osama bin Laden’s stated goal of ending American military presence in the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula,[1][2] overthrowing Arab regimes he considers corrupt and insufficiently religious,[1][2] stopping American support for Israel, and returning East Timor and Kashmir to rule by Muslims.[3]
“Anything like secular terror plots? Democratic terror plots? What a stupid way to simplify the complexity of this world.”
There are different types and motivations for terrorism. Cyber terrorism occurs online in contrast to traditional terrorism. Islamic terrorism differs from eco-terrorism which differs from government sponsored terrorism.
“And the CIA is capable of much much more, including movement.”
If you have evidence that the CIA has staged false flag operations on and/or after 9/11, I would like to see it (with links to the sources).
“Hey who gives a shit about context these days anyway right?”
Thank you for correcting my contextually lacking excerpt.
“So, in your opinion, we really need these huge intelligence agencies, like the CIA, right?”
No. It should be abolished.
“It would be totally insane to think that secret parts of our government make sure money and resources and anything else they need gets funneled to these terrorists”
Do you mean to combat them or to support them?
“…so the intelligence agencies will have more justification in recieving billions of dollars in funding, even in the mist of a depressed economy when schools are being cut back.”
School funding is not being cut. There are too many teachers. Obama signed an emergency bill to halt teacher layoffs in August 2010.
“That would be insane to think that, right?”
I give a differing opinion. You respond with hostility in the form of a question. Hostility is unlikely to change anyone’s opinion.
Well of course I don’t have direct evidence for top secret operations the CIA undertakes. But like everything they do, time will reveal the truth.
Is all the evidence that individuals are behind these attacks government sourced? I believe most are.
Again: this is not some sort of covert operation.
This is just propaganda to keep people on the edge. As I said Washington ain’t pleased with the lack of enthusiasm displayed by “allies” about its “war on terror”. The disclosure that NATO militaries provided personel to “black operations” teams in Afghanistan has shocked many who thought “our boys” were just there to give chocolate to children and rights to women. Yes, there are still people believing that a flag patch makes all the difference “US soldiers are bad, but ours are good; they are there to help people”. This is so monumentally retarded I won’t even comment.
Now, one thing that really bugs me off is this: why bother with all these “terror alerts”? Just pass the damn legislation and be done with it. Europeans won’t protest, they’ll just stay there and take it. Just don’t touch “their” pensions and “free” healthcare.
limitgov,
your implication that the US government directly supported al qaeda is an urban legend.
the only money bin laden got from the US government was indirect.
read the following:
Abdullah Anas, an Algerian who was one of the foremost Afghan Arab organizers and the son-in-law of Abdullah Azzam, has also confirmed that the CIA had no relationship with the Afghan Arabs. Speaking on the French television program Zone Interdit on September 12, 2004, Anas stated:
If you say there was a relationship in the sense that the CIA used to meet with Arabs, discuss with them, prepare plans with them, and to fight with them – it never happened.
and this:
Milt Bearden served as the CIA station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, where he was in charge of running the covert action program for Afghanistan. In his memoirs, The Main Enemy: The Inside Story of the CIA’s Final Showdown with the KGB, Bearden says the United States, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, Egypt, and the UK were “major players” in the effort to aid the Afghans. (pp. 217-218) Bearden writes:
Contrary to what people have come to imagine, the CIA never recruited, trained, or otherwise used Arab volunteers. The Afghans were more than happy to do their own fighting – we saw no reason not to satisfy them on this point.” (The Main Enemy, p. 243)
and this:
Marc Sageman worked closely with the Afghan mujahideen as one of Milt Bearden’s case officers, from 1987 to 1989. In his book, Understanding Terror Networks, he writes:
No U.S. official ever came in contact with the foreign volunteers. They simply traveled in different circles and never crossed U.S. radar screens. They had their own sources of money and their own contacts with the Pakistanis, official Saudis, and other Muslim supporters, and they made their own deals with the various Afghan resistance leaders. Their presence in Afghanistan was very small and they did not participate in any significant fighting. (Understanding Terror Networks, pp. 57-58.)
and this:
CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen notes that the “Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding”:
While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, they don’t make good history. The truth is more complicated, tinged with varying shades of gray. The United States wanted to be able to deny that the CIA was funding the Afghan war, so its support was funneled through Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI). ISI in turn made the decisions about which Afghan factions to arm and train, tending to favor the most Islamist and pro-Pakistan. The Afghan Arabs generally fought alongside those factions, which is how the charge arose that they were creatures of the CIA.
and this:
Al Qaida’s number two leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has confirmed that the “Afghan Arabs” did not receive any U.S. funding during the war in Afghanistan. In the book that was described as his “last will,” Knights Under the Prophet’s Banner, which was serialized in December 2001 in Al-Sharq al-Awsat, al-Zawahiri says the Afghan Arabs were funded with money from Arab sources, which amounted to hundreds of millions of dollars:
“While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujahidin factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujahidin’s relationship with the United States was totally different.
“… The financing of the activities of the Arab mujahidin in Afghanistan came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations.
there is a lot of conspiracy theory nonsense circulating on mises.org at all levels on this issue. However, the truth is:
• U.S. covert aid went to the Afghans, not to the “Afghan Arabs”
• The “Afghan Arabs” were funded by Arab sources, not by the United States
• The United States never had “any relationship whatsoever” with Osama bin Laden
• The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Arab backing for the “Afghan Arabs,” and bin Laden’s own decisions “created” Osama bin Laden and al Qaida, not the United States.
facts are stubborn things.