Confused and seeking help: Mises Institute vs. Freedom Force International

Here’s another quote by Griffin:

Rhodes was only able to achieve his plan - “actually establish collectivism” - because the intellectual work was being done by the Fabians. So Rhodes created new positions of power (of the aggressive kind), but these positions were only accepted because the majority of people were collectivists. Freedom Force seems to want to ‘undo Rhodes’ by getting “good people” (individualists) in the positions of aggressive power. But they will be impotent at disbanding those positions unless we ‘undo the Fabians’ first, so that a critical mass of people demand that they are disbanded. The real lesson we can learn from the collectivist takeover of the world is that the ideas held by the masses change first, then institutions follow.

trulib:

Thanks for all the links!

I disagree that the state has grown without public support, and Griffin would as well, I think

In this passage from part 2 of The Future is Calling, Griffin describes how state power has grown without public support:

THE QUIGLEY FORMULA
The CFR embraces members of both major American political parties. It is not a partisan organization. Voters are led to believe that, by choosing between the Democrat and Republican parties, they have a choice. They think they are participating in their own political destiny, but that is an illusion. To a collectivist like Professor Quigley, it is a necessary illusion to prevent the voters from meddling into the important affairs of state. If you have ever wondered why the two American parties appear so different at election time but so similar afterward, listen carefully to Quigley’s approving overview of American politics:

“The National parties and their presidential candidates, with the Eastern Establishment assiduously fostering the process behind the scenes, moved closer together and nearly met in the center with almost identical candidates and platforms, although the process was concealed as much as possible, by the revival of obsolescent or meaningless war cries and slogans (often going back to the Civil War). … The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can “throw the rascals out” at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy. … Either party in office becomes in time corrupt, tired, unenterprising, and vigorless. Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party, which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies.”

What are those basic policies? They are anything that advances the network’s longrange goal. Quigley says that candidates and parties can and should differ on many things so long as they mutually advance world government based on the model of collectivism. While campaigning, they should appear to be fierce opponents; but when the elections are over, they must work in harmony for the main objective. Everything else is showmanship. Let us examine a few examples.

In the Carter Administration, the U.S. electorate was overwhelmingly opposed to giving away the Panama Canal, yet the leadership of both parties voted to do so, led on both sides of the isle by members of the CFR.

Republicans call for war in the Middle East and advocate that we give more power to the UN. Democrats call for peace and advocate that we give more power to the UN. The voters don’t want that, but it is a goal of CFR. Neither party objects to the fact that a UN resolution was the legal basis for war rather than the U.S. Constitution.

Republicans promote legislation to restrict personal rights in the name of antiterrorism. Democrats give speeches of concern and then vote for those laws. The voters don’t want that, but it is the goal of the CFR. The legislation was written by members of the CFR even before 9/11.

Republicans give speeches about the danger of illegal immigration. Democrats give speeches about compassion to immigrants. Both parties unite in merging the U.S. with Mexico and Canada so that national borders soon will be meaningless. The voters don’t want that, but it is the goal of CFR.

Republican leaders steal elections with rigged voting machines. Democrat leaders accept their fate with no serious challenge. That’s because rigging elections by preprogrammed voting machines is merely the latest and perhaps ultimate implementation of the Quigley Formula. It’s the end of the line for honest elections and representative government.

The leaders of both political parties are like TV wrestlers. They put on a great show in the ring. They slam each other onto the mat. They jump on each other, pummel each other with apparently bone-breaking blows. They throw each other out of the ring; but it is not a real contest. They have agreed in advance who is going to win, and they are content to wait their turn to be the winner next time. They are professionals, and it’s good for business.

Likewise, politicians today are professionals. They also know what is good for their business, and they play the game well. Meanwhile, voters are like tennis balls, smashed back and forth across the net of politics. The tennis players win half the time, but the tennis ball never wins. And so the game goes on, as our nation and freedom fade into history.

Sorry that was so long, but I think it’s important.

after all, his whole point is that the root of evil is about the ideology. In short: there are collectivists in power because most people are collectivists.

Actually, I think Griffin would argue that most people would be individualists had they not been brainwashed by a small group of collectivist leaders. Collectivism is the ideology of a small group of elites who think they must lead society toward a greater good, whatever the cost to individual liberty. Collectivists are in power because they seek power, and will resort to lies and deception to get it. People support them because they have been brainwashed, not because they have consciously come to the intellectual decision that collectivism is a good ideology.

Though its not as dynamic as the market at responding to consumer desires (an understatement!), the government is, ultimately, responsive to individuals’ desires. This is the point made by Boetie, Mises and Rothbard when they say all government ultimately rests on public opinion. Ideas shape institutions.

Yes, government is responsive to individual desires, but to the individual desires of the people who control the government, not the public. The ideas that shape institutions are those held by the collectivist elites controlling the institutions, not the public’s ideas. I agree that the passive support of the public is a foundation of tyranny, but that is different than saying that public opinion created tyranny in the first place. Many anarchists argue that given the right conditions, an anarcho-capitalist society will spring forth naturally. If it is in man’s nature to acquire property and exchange peacefully, then why do we accept tyrannical rule? It is because we have been brainwashed by the collectivist minority.

The media, as an opinion-moulding force, is obviously very important. But with the internet, we are seeing the decline of the controlled media, and the emergence of a new, free media. There is no need to try to take over the positions of power in the controlled mainstream media. To give a slight twist to Griffin’s slogan: why fight city hall, when you can bypass city hall?

Unfortuately, the rise of free speech over the internet means that it has become a target of regulation and control. I hope we can count on it remaining a tool to disseminate the ideology of liberty. But even with the internet, I’m not sure we can achieve widespread change in public opinion as long as the MSM is controlled. Even though we can bypass city hall through the internet, there is no way to bypass city hall in general. City hall in one form or another has everyone in its grip, and most attempts to bypass it will land you in jail.

Rhodes was only able to achieve his plan - “actually establish collectivism” - because the intellectual work was being done by the Fabians. So Rhodes created new positions of power (of the aggressive kind), but these positions were only accepted because the majority of people were collectivists. Freedom Force seems to want to ‘undo Rhodes’ by getting “good people” (individualists) in the positions of aggressive power. But they will be impotent at disbanding those positions unless we ‘undo the Fabians’ first, so that a critical mass of people demand that they are disbanded. The real lesson we can learn from the collectivist takeover of the world is that the ideas held by the masses change first, then institutions follow.

It seems to me that the lesson is quite the opposite. The Fabians were an elite minority of intellectuals who developed an ideology of collectivism. They hoped to realize their vision through intellectual persuasion, but Rhodes realized that this strategy would not work. He understood the nature of power, and developed a strategy that involved “economic leverage and political deciet.” Unlike the Fabian strategy, Rhodes’ strategy did not depend on convincing anyone of the virtue of collectivism. His followers achieved political power by whatever means necessary, and then implemented their collectivist agenda with a complete disregard for public opinion. In fact, collectivist leaders have had to constantly lie to the public in order to maintain support. Why? Because most people do not believe that the greater good is served by the creation of a totalitarian world government!

I believe the collectivist takover of the world in the past 100 years or so reflects the evil agenda of a small group. Once the institutions of power were subverted by this group, they were able to engineer and change the ideas of the masses. After all, at the time of the American Revolution the minds of the masses in America were bursting with ideas of freedom and individualism, thanks to the work of the elites who led the colonies. Today, however, the elites make sure our heads are pumped full of collectivist propaganda.

I love Griffin’s site. I read his news page regularly.

But you’re not a member of Freedom Force? Also, do you know of other people on this forum who follow Unfiltered News or are members of FF.

Just one lil thing. I think his THEORETICAL grasp of economics is not as sound as what you will find here.

He seems like a pretty sound gold standard, free-market Austrian type to me. But then my grasp of economics is very basic.

I seem to remember a piece from him about how we are all working for the banks, maybe someone here remembers it.

He definitely thinks we’re all indirectly taxed by the banks through inflation and fiat money.

I realize that the focus of your concerns in this thread is more about the practical side. Just thought I’d mention it.

Exactly, I’m trying to figure out the most practical strategy to achieve liberty. That’s why I think Griffin’s contribution is valuable despite any theoretical shortcomings.

LeeO,

The extent to which ideas shape institutions or institutions shape ideas is an interesting subject. I suppose it is a complex relationship, with each shaping the other. Free market institutions are shaped by the ideas of the masses, whereas government institutions and cartelized institutions are shaped more by the ideas of an elite few than by the ideas of the masses. The ideas of the masses are manipulated by the opinion-molding centers, which are largely under the control of the collectivist elite.

I’ve read through Griffin’s strategy a few times now, and I think his use of terms like ‘power center’ and ‘lead’ (as opposed to ‘rule’) gave me slightly the wrong impression about what he is suggesting. These are all quotes from the Freedom Force strategy page:

In this last quote, he makes clear that taking over the power centers is merely a means to educating and arousing the public. Power centers are defined as organizations which influence public opinion, i.e. not merely government institutions. So the strategy seems to be (1) take over the opinion-molding centers, so that (2) public opinion is influenced in favor of individualism, so that (3) a pro-freedom political candidate can get elected and (4) he can implement his policies, so that (5?) we have a freer society.

Griffin doesn’t seem to make a distinction between a political power center and a non-political power center. But if the sequence of events above is the strategy, then the goal is not yet to take over a political power center to get a pro-freedom candidate in and implementing policies, but only to take over the opinion-molding centers of society (which may include political power centers, but at this stage, would only be for educational purposes, not implementing policies) so that the masses can be awakened to individualism.

Do you think I have understood the strategy correctly?

There are two seperate issues here: A. Is taking over the opinion-molding centers the best way of influencing public opinion? B. Once the masses are individualists, is getting a pro-freedom political candidate elected and able to ‘implement policies’ the best way to acheive a freer society?

What do you think Griffin means here by critical mass? What happens when this critical mass is reached? (Leviathan transforms into a nightwatchman?)

trulib,

I think you understand the strategy correctly, and reading your post helped to clarify things in my mind also, so thanks!

There are two seperate issues here: A. Is taking over the opinion-molding centers the best way of influencing public opinion? B. Once the masses are individualists, is getting a pro-freedom political candidate elected and able to ‘implement policies’ the best way to acheive a freer society?

These are great questions - the ones I should have been asking in the original post! After reading Griffin’s work, his arguments convinced me and my answers were “yes” to both questions. But this forum is full of different opinions, like the idea that the entire system of statist violence is headed for self-destruction and anarchy is inevitable. Also, many see no fundamental difference between Griffin’s protectorate and a coercive state. These arguments also make sense to me. How would you answer your own questions?

What do you think Griffin means here by critical mass? What happens when this critical mass is reached? (Leviathan transforms into a nightwatchman?)

I think he is talking about a critical mass of individualist leaders in the power centers of society. Griffin rejects the idea that “Ghandi’s critical mass” - a critical mass of regular people practicing civil disobedience - can achieve liberty. The key group is the 3% leading the population through the power centers. As a critical mass in this area is reached, the public attitude will follow and the tide will turn towards liberty. Then political leaders, through public policy, will be able to take apart Leviathan and eventually replace it with a protectorate.

In the end, we need a critical mass of some sort to achieve a freer society. The general philosophy at the Mises Institute seems to be that this mass can be achieved by educating the public from outside the power centers. Once the public understands freedom, they will cease to enslave themselves and governments will topple. Griffin, on the other hand, believes that there will be no widespread change in public opinion unless a critical mass in the power centers is achieved first. Since Griffin’s critical mass is much smaller, due to their concentration of power, his strategy seems more realistic to me at this point. It is a tried and true approach that collectivists have successfully used to gain control, so why shouldn’t it work for the “good guys?”

Neilsio,

Thanks for the video. Overall, Stefan’s argument is very convincing. Here are some thoughts:

In his “thought experiment,” the government is represented by a speeding car mowing people down, and politicians are like the hood ornament on the car. Based on this analogy - on the idea that government is a violent, destructive force that cannot be influenced on its inevitable path to destruction - it’s hard to argue with him. But my problem is that I feel like I am in the car. Perhaps I can enjoy the ride more by looking out the window and talking to the other passengers, rather than worrying about the hood ornament, but either way we’re going to crash at some point. So instead of just sitting there, it makes more sense to do something to stop the car - kick the driver out, pull the emergency brake, steer into a lake and swim away - anything to give me power over the car’s speed and direction.

And if violence is self-destructive, and government inevitably collapses, why do we still have violence and governments? They have sustained themselves pretty well for thousands of years, so why expect this to change in the future? Violence is inherent in human nature. That is why we need a non-aggression principle in the first place - because it is always broken.

Stefan argues that libertarians have been trying to enact change through politics and have always failed. This is true. But I don’t think a strategy as comprehensive as FFI has ever been implemented. Politics is only a fraction of the Freedom Force strategy, only one way to achieve power. Think about all the power and influence Stefan has through the media.

Politicians may not be able to give us anything, but they can take from us everything we have. As long as we hold onto the notion that only evil sociopaths can be politicians, won’t we be forever ruled by evil sociopaths?!

To have real change, the state must be viewed with utmost cynicism. They have to stand on the back of their heels. They should feel the wrath of the involuntary serfs. If the idea is held up that the nature of the state is really one about protection and social progress then this functions simply as a way to get people to comply. And this myth is what allowed all growth of state power from the very beginning.

I agree with this. Griffin certainly views the state with cynicism, but he believes it will always exist and must therefore be properly limited to protection. According to an anarchist this isn’t cynical enough. The state must be treated like a cancer and be fully eradicated. This idea appeals to me.

Perhaps the reality is that I just need to let go, free my mind, and stop worrying about changing an unchangeable system. Perhaps the most I can do is live as freely as possible given the circumstances, and educate others how to do so. But then I think about all the apathetic people who don’t care about politics or freedom or anything besides the next sports match or TV show. They are disengaged, but they certainly aren’t free or making us more free. Is it enough just to free your own mind?

Not to be a wet blanket, but I think you’re neglecting your own corruptibility. Those in power are probably not more evil than the average person on the street. The only difference between the wealthy/powerful and the average person is that those in power were born into a set of circumstances that gave them greater opportunity to achieve their own interests than most people have. Even the wealthy and powerful cannot stop the system - even if someone like David Rockefeller had a change of heart overnight and decided to use his entire resources for the pursuit of human freedom, etc. etc. he could not change the system because none of the other wealthy/powerful people would follow suit (as it would be acting against their own interests given the system). The system is more powerful than the most powerful individual in the world.

If you start playing the political game - trying to wield power and influence, whether through holding offices, business pursuits, media, religion, academia, whatever - you too will be subject to the same problem of pursuit of your own interests. The more you succeed in acquiring power, inevitably, you will be empowered to trample the interests of others in the pursuit of your own interests, and you will. Many tyrants have started out genuinely intending to bring freedom to their people, only to find that, for all the power they had, they could not change the system. When an individual cannot achieve A, he resorts to B his second preference. The tyrant reasons that if society cannot be made free, then he may as well do his best to make it good (per his private definition). In the process, people are tortured, killed, oppressed, enslaved and expended in wars.

This may sound fatalistic but it is not. The problem is that we have to identify the root cause of the system itself. Why is there a “system” to begin with? There has not always been a system, that much is clear, because our primate ancestors did not have a “system”. They have certain social patterns of behavior that are largely instinctual. So, the “system” - or power-establishment - is a uniquely human invention. I believe that the roots of the system lie in the perversion of law through territorial monopolization. All other problems which might be identified in society are either symptoms of this larger problem or insignificant by comparison. For this reason, all our efforts ought to be concentrated on dismantling the territorial monopolization of law. There are a million avenues of attack - religion, politics, media, academia, business ventures, family, even law itself - but the liberal - that is, one who cherishes human liberty - ought to have as his primary goal the dismantling of the territorial monopolization of law no matter what means he chooses to pursue that goal.

Clayton -

What system never existed? Industrial civilizations never existed without nation states.

“Industrial civilizations never existed without nation states.”

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Check The Great Transformation for the details.

Also notice that I never said which one was the cause.

Go read Rothbard’s review for the details.

Also notice, take your pick - still fallacious. Are you going to bother with an argument, something more than assertion?

.. didn’t think so.

LeeO,

A. Is taking over the opinion-molding centers the best way of influencing public opinion?

The two most important power-centers in terms of opinion-molding are the media and the schools. Taking over the media or a school would mean individualists reaching a high level within those organizations, such that the output of that organization could be changed to be individualist: showing that governments cause problems and are never the solution to problems. How would one go about this without the use of “secrecy, lies, bribery, blackmail, theft, murder, and all the other manifestation of coercion or deceit”? I can’t see how it is possible without some level of deceit. ‘Big Media’ and schools are beneficiaries of government spending and protection: how likely is it that someone who openly denounces such government privileges is going to be promoted within that organization to a level where they can set the agenda?

The only way I can think of is to “go undercover” or water-down the message of freedom temporarily. Then when you are in a position of power, suddenly come out of closet and say ‘actually, I think government should be no more than a nightwatchman protectorate’ (or no government at all). First, is this likely to happen, or does power tend to corrupt? And second, even if an angelic, incorruptible individualist was able to pull it off, how long would he be able to remain in his position of power? I doubt he could make a lasting difference… these organizations tend to quickly find a way to shut up anyone that starts saying things significantly contrary to the wishes of the owners.

A more successful strategy for influencing public opinion, in my view, is to bypass the existing power centers altogether, rather than trying to infiltrate them. The internet is making the mainstream media, and the standard model of public education, obsolete. Good ideas - like individualism - no longer need to be filtered through mainstream establishments. It doesn’t take a lot of education in liberty to overcome decades of mal-education, state propaganda and brainwashing, because the idea of liberty is so powerful. All it takes is a moment of realization, a “waking up” experience.

B. Once the masses are individualists, is getting a pro-freedom political candidate elected and able to ‘implement policies’ the best way to achieve a freer society?

Governments don’t usually shrink, unless they are forced to, when they have extracted so much wealth from the citizens that the government collapses. I think politics is of use to us only insofar as it used as a platform to spread ideas and educate the masses. The goal of shrinking the state from within - even with mass public support - is wishful thinking. Too many special interests have too much to lose.

Secessionism is a better strategy in my opinion.

That’s a good summary.

Because the interests of those in high positions in the power centers coincide with the interests of the “bad guy” collectivists, so infiltrating the power centers was easier for them. Furthermore, they were willing to use “secrecy, lies, bribery, blackmail, theft, murder, and all the other manifestation of coercion or deceit”. We individualists have a better chance with the masses, since their interests coincide with ours, if we can only help them realise it.

Go read Callahan’s review for the details.

Callahans continued existence seems to be doing nothing more than tacking ‘shots’ at the content of what Rothbard has written, then mixing in as many ad hominems as he possibly can in the shortest amount of space as possible. Just browse his blog.

Notice, he ignores essentially all the points of substance. I read the review, it offered no details. So you got anything better than a few quote grabs review, from a 10 page review? Because quite clearly you’ve done nothing to back up your earlier statement, not even come close.

As for Callahan, all he does is attack Rothbards charachterizations. Quite clearly people have different conceptions of “worship”, no doubt Rothbard has a higher standard than Callahan. Pretty sad really. He comes off as someone emotionally unstable, throwing a temper tantrum. It’s like Rothbard has personally wronged him in some way.

Rothbard: “Polanyi angrily criticizes those, like Mises…”

Callahan: Ohhh Rothbard must have been pissed himself to assume Polanyi was angry. I mean sure Polanyi criticises Mises, but oohh look at Rothbard [ensue description of Callahans imagination about what Rothbard was doing whilst reviewing the book </ad hominem>]

Also notice you haven’t made an argument yet, nor even tried. Let us know when (if?) you do.

It turns out I linked to different post than I intended because the other came up in searches for Polanyi and I didn’t check. Here is an actual takedown on some of the historical claims. I noticed another oddity in the review.

Isn’t this preciesely what scientists like Pinkerton refuted?

Hello DD5,

Sorry it took so long for me to reply to your comments.

"We can write proclamations all day long and claim God’s word or logic or philosophy as our authority, but they mean nothing unless we are able to back our proclamations with physical force."

The question remains. Why must you have a coercive territorial monopoly to back up anything? The logical inference from this is that you must have a world government. There is no escaping this logical implication, which even Griffin would concede to be fallacious.

You don’t need a coercive territorial monopoly to back up anything. But you do need physical force of some sort. Right now, that force is organized all across the globe in the form of the state. The proclamations of politicians have power because they are backed up by the guns of the police and military.

Enough with the inconsistency. Law and order are indeed vital economic services that will be in demand by any modern and complex society based on the division of labor. But like bread and other basic needs, which by the way must come before the establishment of defense agencies (or a government), they can and should be provided by the free market.

I agree. But right now they are not provided by the free market, because the concept of the state is too compelling for the predators in society, and too easy to justify to the masses. The only way to gain control over law and order right now is to achieve political power over the state apparatus. I hope this will change, but I don’t see anarchy succeeding in the near future.

No conspiracy theory is required to recognize the ongoing destructionist policies of literally every government on the face of the earth. That people hate Capitalism and individual freedom, that most don’t even understand it, that the political system breeds antisocial behavior, that many people believe the myths regarding laissez-faire, that many believe Socialism can yield greater economic productivity, etc.. is not the result of some few master planners conspiring to enslave you. All of the people and organizations that Griffin talks about are symptom or effects, and not the main cause.

Griffin talks about the most wealthy and powerful people in the world. They are the people that cause things to happen on a large scale. Since they cause bad things to happen to most of us, they act in secret and hide their true intentions. Therefore, an investigation into their activities requires a study of conspiracies.

If these powerful conspirators are symptoms, then what is the main cause? Is it the moral fallacy that Clayton has been talking about?

Not to be a wet blanket, but I think you’re neglecting your own corruptibility.

Thanks for keeping me grounded. :slight_smile:

You are probably right. If I were born a Rockefeller I’d be just as “evil.”

This is depressing. It’s like a giant Catch-22.

My fear is that the goal of “dismantling the territorial monopoly on law” is out of my hands. It will probably happen someday, but not in my lifetime, my children’s lifetime, or my grandchildren’s lifetime. In order for the monopoly to be permanenty dismantled, we need a much more enlightened human population. I will do all I can to spread the enlightenment.

I still feel like given the monopoly on law we now have, there are various degrees of freedom. Those who cherish liberty could do a lot of good by taking over the monopoly, and trying to make sure that law is designed to protect, not to provide, and that law is applied equally to all people.