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this thread has turned into a debate on marginal producitvity theory. I am conscious of my lack of intelectual rigor in this subject, i would appreciate if anyone here would be interested enough to comb through my attempts and correct me so i can get more comfortable with the subtleties of the issues. for an example i am conscious i have not explicitly talked about ordinal rankings, and the menger style order uses stuff. also if anyone has suggestions as to how this thread might be developed i would be interested to learn.