Near the end, we focus on capital theory.
Am I right that a vaccum cleaner is capital? Is there a grain of truth in what the socialists claim about capital?
The vacuum cleaner is a capital good.
What do socialists claim?
You have to keep in mind, you’re arguing with ideologues who talk about the manifesto, but probably don’t know the difference between the ltv and the stv.
Yes. Capital is any good used in the production of another good. Be it another capital good, or consumer good.
I take it that by “capital” and “means of production” they mean factories and land. You know, the exploitative things.
The caste between worker and capitalist.
That socialism and nonviolence are non-contradictiory. (I am assuming that the everyone agrees senario won’t happen.)
That the Communist Manifesto was remarkable. (I agree to this for different reasons.)
Capitalism is inherantly coercive.
A person who is starving to death, who can’t do anything to prevent it, is inherantly being coerced.
They are not capitalists, even when they own capital goods, and use them to type rebuttals.
Workers vs. Capitalists automatically occurs.
Not to poison the well, but these were things I heard from individuals
Well how could any of that be right?
I don’t know. It could be wrong. This is like an act of faith, seriously.
Well someone can handle the Labor theory of value, I just knocked out Historical materialism (ie Class struggle). I could more onto metaphysical alienation (Division of Labour/ Individual consciousness)
Anybody who has some savings in a bank, stocks, 401K, etc… is a Capitalist.
If he wants big shots, here are the top 10 Capitalists in the world. Bill Gates is still #1. Ask him if he thinks Bill Gates is the #1 exploiter?
THE BILLIONAIRES
- William Gates III
- Warren Buffett
- Carlos Slim Helú
- Lawrence Ellison
- Ingvar Kamprad
- Karl Albrecht
- Mukesh Ambani
- Lakshmi Mittal
- Theo Albrecht
- Amancio Ortega
- Jim Walton
- Alice Walton
- Christy Walton
- S Robson Walton
- Bernard Arnault
- Li Ka-shing
- Michael Bloomberg
- Stefan Persson
- Charles Koch
- David Koch
- View The Complete List
According to Marxists, Capitalists are those who survive solely on surplus profit from ‘exploitation’.
Chodorov used to love arguing with socialists. But I don’t think it is very productive myself. These people are lala land dreamers, and basically no threat to anything because people with anti-capitalist sentiments are not going to be effective organizers or promoters.
I suppose it is good for sharpening your wits and arguments.
You should call them out on using capitalist Google infrastructure for their socialism. Find out if they have credit cards, and willingly submitted to exploitation from Mastercard and Visa.
Why bother. They will only claim they are being coerced.
Those would be more accurately described as ‘monopolists’.
According to Marxist theory, capitalism leads to monopoly.
Yet, socialism is monopolistic by definition.
One of their lovely contradictions. For some bizzaro reason [or lack of] they believe that public monopolies are somehow just and private monopolies unjust. It is almost utilitarian in a way.
One good contradiction is when Orwell showed how the state is bad, but denied that he was attacking socialism. But logically, he was showing how it failed.
It would if it were monopolistic. If you can get infinite government bail-outs, pretty soon you will own the entire market.
Public debt doesn’t really exist. We owe it to ourselves…
A point you should express to the Marxists.
Don’t forget (and this is of paramount importance!) that all capital goods are the product of one’s labor.
So much for the socialist cry, that he should receive the full product of his labor. Now, if he must receive the product of his labor (setting aside the qualifier “full” which was aptly torpedoed by Eugen Bohm-Bawerk in C & I) then he may certainly accumulate capital. Surely then, anyone who tries to deprive the producer of his product, should be viewed as a thief, an undesirable. Therefore, the mere fact that the product of my labor differs in some subjective way (i.e., someone deems it to be a “capital” good) does not by itself, constitute any justifiable reason for depriving me of my control/ownership thereof.
That is the 30-second demolition of Das Kapital. (Thanks to Thorsmitresaw on Youtube for pointing that one out.)