Why isn’t a link to here added to the rules? Furthermore, why are the rules (which need considerable clarification) not posted in every forum?
Nearly everyone here has more important things to do than cater to your many and insignificant complaints.
Please save this ridiculousness for someone who cares, which if you haven’t figured out yet, is not anyone here.
[INSULT DELETED] What do moderators do here besides erase a handful of posts per week? Many forums put rules in every section. Many revise their divisions of forums, like say opening a philosophy section. That would take all of 5 minutes?
Would have liked to have seen that.
I have run a forum for 6 years, and moderate two others. Rules are almost always posted once.
I suspect more forums are not being added because the entire community is being overhauled. There are technical considerations to porting over so many users and so much data, without needlessly complicating it to add forums on the fly once the development process has started.
It seems to me your recurring problem is that this forum is not being run to your satisfaction. What is the libertarian response to that? I think it is start your own forum where you can have a philosophy section, post rules in every forum, and you can deal with nonstop spam attacks, and members who show little respect for you as a host.
Please. Be entrepreneurial.
“Would have liked to have seen that.”
Ever used Twitter? I asked something to the effect of, “Why are you being completely unreasonable and uncivil?”
That’s amazing that Lilburne reverses other moderator’s decision on banning Rettoper, and takes about 4 days to get aban to stick on Benjamin, but just as I was about to edit my post to say, “Why are you being such a jerk?”, I swiftly got a 14 day ban.
"I have run a forum for 6 years, and moderate two others. Rules are almost always posted once.
That’s great. You haven’t been here for when I have innocuously made rather common-sense suggestions regarding the forum and been treated similarly to how you have now. I still didn’t take the suggestion of one of your fellow moderators to take things to Tucker yet. I thought I would give you guys one more chance.
You need to keep in mind regarding my complaints about forum organization that I had no clue until ~a week ago that we were getting new forum software. I guess that excuses the inaction, yet we’re probably going to wait for another 3 months to have working software. I mean, what else can we do but guess since you offer no information.
I suspect more forums are not being added because the entire community is being overhauled. There are technical considerations to porting over so many users and so much data, without needlessly complicating it to add forums on the fly once the development process has started."
I was originally questioning Lilburne’s effort, but you have spent roughly how many hours on this? Zero?
“and you can deal with nonstop spam attacks”
Like I said, you guys delete less than 12 posts per week I’m guessing. Moderators taking credit for the technical barriers the programmers put up to counter spam is kinda like Obama taking credit for military victories.
“That’s amazing that Lilburne reverses other moderator’s decision on banning Rettoper, and takes about 4 days to get aban to stick on Benjamin, but just as I was about to edit my post to say, “Why are you being such a jerk?”, I swiftly got a 14 day ban.”
And it hasn’t been 14 days, has it? I didn’t ban you, and I was the one who had your ban drastically shortened, in spite of you calling a mod a “twat”, and altogether adding more unpleasantness to this community than just about any other single member, so don’t give me grief.
Are we going to have this debate, or not?
“That’s great. You haven’t been here for when I have innocuously made rather common-sense suggestions regarding the forum and been treated similarly to how you have now. I still didn’t take the suggestion of one of your fellow moderators to take things to Tucker yet. I thought I would give you guys one more chance.”
What part of “we are migrating to a completely different platform very soon, so it doesn’t make sense to be making changes that aren’t absolutely necessary” don’t you understand?
By the way, I’ve already notified Jeff about your “innocuous suggestions” and general behavior. But if you want to share more of you “innocuousness” with him, go right ahead. We don’t particularly need your “one more chance”, so why wait? Do it now.
There are many things you do not have a clue about, yet you persist to cry like a child and demand attention from people who are trying to improve the situation. As mentioned, your behavior is embarrassing.
The reason why you are advised to take this to Jeffrey is so that you finally get that the community is not being run counter to how he hopes it would be run. No one is afraid of you going to Jeffrey, and no one is worried about second chances. That is an empty threat. So please act on it and lets get past this perception that your sense of entitlement is validated by the belief Lilburne or other mods are behaving in a rogue manner, because as you will find out, that is simply not so.
What relevance does that have to do with anything? Are you on the community mailing list? Have you seen the staging site? Have you offered your technical expertise or advice? If not, then don’t talk to me about my involvement or effort. I have volunteered hundreds of hours of my time to this community to deal with all sorts of issues. What have you contributed?
You’re guessing? Based on what? I know guys like Danny and Nir have spent hours each week over the last year doing admin and mod work, not to mention anything Lilburne or I have done. Who are you to even try to imagine what is done by others to provide you with the experience you currently enjoy, and are working to provide a better experience in the future?
Again, you’re speaking from ignorance. There are no technical barriers the programmers have put up to counter spam. Nearly all spam fighting on this community has to be done daily, by several people, and it is all manual work. People like Nir and I have had to go so far as to create our own software solutions to clean up massive spam attacks. Again, volunteers, working their ass off to create an environment where you can cry and whine about every little thing which does not please you.
Now your ignorance and guesswork has been laid out for what it is. Will you show some sense of humility and act with dignity after this? Are you capable of being a big man and admitting you have been acting like a fool, and causing distress where none was warranted, eroding morale and resources in order to promote an ignorant view fueled by emotional outbursts?
Or will you walk the walk behind your complaints and dismissal of the work it takes to run a community, particularly one in this circumstance, and start your own? Are you going to do the libertarian thing and compete, or will you do the statist thing and threaten to report people and demand services which you are not entitled to?
The choice is yours. Everyone is watching.
And it hasn’t been 14 days, has it? I didn’t ban you, and I was the one who had your ban drastically shortened, in spite of you calling a mod a “twat”, and altogether adding more unpleasantness to this community than just about any other single member, so don’t give me grief.
I was about to change my first sentence to, “Why are you being such a jerk?”, roughly 5 minutes after I first posted. As I went to do so, I saw my first sentence changed to [Insult deleted] and the edit notes saying edited by Lilburne. But it was someone else who decided on 14 days? Who? You think that I am going to thank you for supposedly reducing my ban? 3 days is still unjust.
What is wrong with asking why rules are not posted in every forum? Most forums (that aren’t just like every armpit of the internet) either have a sticky in each forum or has something at the top of every page that says “Rules”. If your new policy is to move member issues to it’s own “group” PUT THIS POLICY IN YOUR RULES. What is so hard about that? Tell people where this “member issues forum” is when you edit people’s posts.
I find it somewhat unpleasant that you think people like Rettoper make valuable contributions to the forum. You can keep the people who call libertarians “faith-based jihadists”, and I will find something better to do with my time.
What part of “we are migrating to a completely different platform very soon, so it doesn’t make sense to be making changes that aren’t absolutely necessary” don’t you understand?
What part of the quote button has been broken for 3 months and nobody had any clue that any software transition was happening until like a week ago do you not understand? Until you happened to claim this was happening (again we have no clue when it might happen) all I was led to believe was that nothing was going to be done to improve these fora ever.
“I saw my first sentence changed to [Insult deleted] and the edit notes saying edited by Lilburne. But it was someone else who decided on 14 days?”
Yes I deleted your insult. But I repeat: I did not ban you.
You didn’t answer my question. Are you and I going to have a debate over argumentation ethics or not?
Did it ever occur to you that your own ignorance is not everyone else’s problem? That you’re not a stakeholder, and no one is obligated to inform you of everything they do? Or how your antisocial behavior isolates you from becoming one of those people who will be informed of what is going on?
“You didn’t answer my question. Are you and I going to have a debate over argumentation ethics or not?”
That you think what you wrote is a refutation is laughable. I can dash it against the rocks in a single sentence, but I decided to make it worth my time by andvancing theory and started writing out a lengthy post. I’ll try to finish it and stop arguing this topic for a while, as soon as you admit making one mistake ever related to your handling of the fora.
“That you think what you wrote is a refutation is laughable. I can dash it against the rocks in a single sentence, but I decided to make it worth my time by andvancing theory and started writing out a lengthy post. I’ll try to finish it and stop arguing this topic for a while, as soon as you admit making one mistake ever related to your handling of the fora.”
I’ve had to make a lot of decisions, and I’m human: so of course I’ve made MORE than one mistake related to my handling of the forum. In fact I might be making one right now, in letting someone as caustic and insulting as you continue to poison the atmosphere.
So, now let’s drop this, and start the debate.
That’s exactly the time of snarky comment I hate. Why did you remove wilderness’ MVP tag randomly in the past week or so but not hte other people who received them?
You said you would stop arguing about this stuff, and would instead start our Argumentation Ethics debate. Are you going back on that?
Why are you dodging this debate ERO?
Is that what all of these attacks on the moderators and forums are about? Drawing attention away from an argument you know you cannot win?
“You said you would stop arguing about this stuff, and would instead start our Argumentation Ethics debate. Are you going back on that?”
Try reading what I wrote again. There was a condition to me continuing work on that which was not fulfilled. You’ve ignored numerous things I wrote, such as in the Israel thread where you shifted the conversation to some supposedly uncivil remark I made which you didn’t understand. The debate will come. I wanted to give it a full treatment but didn’t work on the post for the last few days.
There are many things you do not have a clue about, yet you persist to cry like a child and demand attention from people who are trying to improve the situation. As mentioned, your behavior is embarrassing.
Such as what specifically?
The reason why you are advised to take this to Jeffrey is so that you finally get that the community is not being run counter to how he hopes it would be run. No one is afraid of you going to Jeffrey, and no one is worried about second chances. That is an empty threat. So please act on it and lets get past this perception that your sense of entitlement is validated by the belief Lilburne or other mods are behaving in a rogue manner, because as you will find out, that is simply not so.
Actually, this moderator seemed to have some issue with the ban of Rettoper being reversed. Several people have talked to me about this problem of coddling trolls.
What relevance does that have to do with anything? Are you on the community mailing list?
I’m not sure what the “community mailing list” is or how to get to this staging site. Would that be something worthy of adding to the rules for people who care about the fora to follow? No, we’ll just complain that you didn’t know about it if you ever question our perfect behavior.
Have you seen the staging site? Have you offered your technical expertise or advice? If not, then don’t talk to me about my involvement or effort. I have volunteered hundreds of hours of my time to this community to deal with all sorts of issues. What have you contributed?
I directed people to the demo site of the WYSIWYG editor we happen to use as a workaround for the broken forums, when both the editor and quote button died. There was multiple threads on this (could have been put to a sticky). I’m not sure if me linking to the editor led to it being used. I checked the mises dev group a few days ago and all I saw related to the fora was something weeks ago about not having time to fix the editor. I saw nothing about moving to new forum software, so I’m skeptical what, if anything, has been done on it.
I helped report bugs when the MP3 player on the A/V section was broken. You guys do not enforce your own rules about repeat topics. I remember one day seeing 3 topics about nukes when I had just written a huge response on the same subject in another thread. As soon as people’s fallacious arguments are defused, the same ones just pop up in new threads. Regardless of how worthless my “anti-social” contributions you say are, I’ve had people in PM tell me to “keep up the good fight” and thank me for my contributions. So, I could care less if you continue to scapegoat me for your own inefficiacy.
You’re guessing? Based on what? I know guys like Danny and Nir have spent hours each week over the last year doing admin and mod work, not to mention anything Lilburne or I have done. Who are you to even try to imagine what is done by others to provide you with the experience you currently enjoy, and are working to provide a better experience in the future?
I see only a handful of posts trying to sell battery powered handheld fans from China or whatever per week. Are you saying that you manually delete all these quicker than somebody like me, who often refreshes the fora list every few minutes sees? You just may, but how many is that per week divided by 5 or so active moderators? If this takes up too much of your time that you couldn’t do a few of the very commonsense suggestions I and others have made, then maybe you need more moderators.
I’m not saying that you guys put no effort. I’ve seen LS help with HTML/PHP or something related stuff long ago, but haven’t seen him around for months. It’s just very curious that simple improvements, such as to forum structure or rules, can’t be accomplished and time is spent instead “debating” Rettoper. Now I know that we are getting new forum software, so it makes this complaint of mine irrelevant. There is still the problem, and this isn’t just me that has this issue, with you keeping trolls around as we move forward. I don’t feel like respnding to all of this nonsense. It remind me of trying to reason with cops. Ciao.
The problem isn’t trolls, it is the lack of emotional maturity of some people on the forum not to take the flame bait, and to invest all of their time trying to get someone banned. This is consistent with your making threats about escalating complaints to Jeffrey. Instead of dealing with things socially, by being an adult, you make demands and threaten action if you don’t like how things are going. It is childish. This forum is here to facilitate debate, and while there may be some people who come here looking to get people riled up, you can demonstrate leadership and poise by ignoring them until they go away or using them as examples to demonstrate sound argumentation.
This is back to the acting like a libertarian bit. Things are not going to be perfect in a libertarian society, and how we deal with things when they don’t go our way is what separates us from statists. You don’t own this forum. You have no property rights in it. If you want to effect change, you will have to do it the way all property rights have been modified in a libertarian manner throughout history. You will have to negotiate and exchange. You will have to choose the social means over the statist means.
If you are referring to yourself, then you’re mistaken. Your complaining and aggressive/insulting behavior is not indicative of someone who cares. It is someone who doesn’t care.
How long ago were you actually trying to help people? When was the last time you tried to make this place better by acting socially?
As far as claiming I am scapegoating, that’s a coward’s tactic. I am not responsible for dev. Lilburne is not responsible for dev. So your constant whining about forum bugs, and the development timeline is directed at the wrong people. Like I said, “there are many things you do not have a clue about”. What is going on is just the start.
And I will say something about people who support you in “fighting” on the forum, against the forum. They aren’t pulling for the betterment of conditions or the reach and quality of the community either. You’re deluded if you think a cheering section somehow validates your behavior.
And what you see is the extent of reality? In your incredible arrogance, has it every occurred to you that you don’t see everything that is going on, and you don’t know what work is really involved? Because that is much closer to the truth.
Maybe there could be more moderators. At one time, there were nearly 20 and only one who fought spam. Me. The problem isn’t more mods, the problem is the platform. What few mods there are, get completely burnt out dealing with arrogant and aggressive people like you, who have entitlement complexes. You undermine morale with your relentless complaining, and you demand 99% of the moderators attention, and then you complain that the moderators don’t do enough, and there is all sorts of improvements that should be made. It would be funny if it wasn’t so damn sad.
Think about how many man hours Lilburne has wasted dealing with issues caused by you. This group is a result largely of your behavior. Your banning, your unbanning, having to create formal debates with you, starting a debate with rettopper in order to demonstrate how an adult can have an argument with someone, without resorting to your thuggish behavior on the forum.
Think about that when you finally back up your threats and contact Jeffrey and waste his time working for LvMI and advancing the cause, to hear all about your petty complaints about forum trolls and where the rules are posted. Think about that. Think about who is really the impediment to progress around here.
Then act like an adult, and don’t reply. If there are three threads on nukes, there are three threads on nukes. It isn’t the end of the world. If the rules aren’t updated to your satisfaction, it isn’t the end of the world. If the quote button doesn’t work, and that is really inconvenient for sure, then that isn’t the end of the world. For the love of pete, LvMI is not under assault by the Jacob Blooms and Rettoppers of the world. It is laughable you give them that much credit.
Because you did not approve of it, you judge it to be a waste of time. The fact of the matter is, since you couldn’t display the leadership and character to debate rettopper in good faith, Lilburne had to step in and show everyone how it is done. And I saw more than one person remark that it was a very good job and more discussions should be like that, and yet strange enough, the emotionally handicapped troll police missed the entire point of the exercise.
As I said at the top of this thread, all of your complaints I have seen are irrelevant. It is just crying by someone who cannot get his way, and so instead seeks to ruin it for everyone by demanding attention, even if he has to go so far as to insult the very people he claims to be helping.
The policy is that people are not removed for their opinions, even if they differ with yours. And it is not possible to prove intent (dishonest argumentation) so all you can do is ignore them if you find them incorrigible. Your inability to exercise this much self-control is your failing, not the failure of the policy of the forum. You children have blown up a few annoying characters much larger than they deserved to be, and then when it was out of control, you want the forum mods to save you from yourself by banning the people you can’t resist flaming.
And yet you do, and you will. Because you refuse to admit you have made a mistake, and you refuse to try to make things better by being the bigger man. It is a miracle that Lilburne has the patience I do not, and is still willing to debate you after you have been so insulting and disrespectful to him, and he has not treated you that way in kind. That’s what character is about. And leadership is only possible with character. Perhaps all of this arguing will not be lost if you can learn that one simple lesson.
“The problem isn’t trolls, it is the lack of emotional maturity of some people on the forum not to take the flame bait”
Strawman. The unnamed mod I am referring to is still unhappy, AFAIK with Lilburne coddling trolls. Wow long post, sorry you wasted your time on something I doubt I will read. My issue is with Lilburne more than you. I always thought you had a rather solid grasp on theory and looked at you as an ally. As much as you are embarrassed by my dissent, I’m embarrassed that you are defending him.