Do ordinary people enjoy liberty?

“The fact is that the average man’s love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty — and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies.”

H. L. Mencken

Good. So we better give up libertarianism because the average man is not going to choose a system that makes him unhappy. There seems to be a contradiction in being both an elitist and a libertarian ?

Well, we could merely advocate purely voluntary society.

So people can organise under government if they wish to.

They just have to wish to.

People now live under coercive governments. Since they don’t value liberty above ‘hapiness’, they won’t change those governments.

Mencken was up his own rump, that is all there is to say to it.

Lets not forget that for all his alleged sense, justice, truth, knowledge, courage and honour he was stil an irredeemable pessimist bordering on a plain defeatist. What better way to feel good about yourself while at the same time not having the courage and conviction to believe in the final triumph of freedom, but to blame it on those dastardly “masses”?

you guys critiquing mencken have over-interpretted. he makes statements about what the average man believes now. he does not state that this cant ever change/ one can hardly deny he is wrong about the majorities that we walk amongst…

People value good jobs and low prices. They don’t really understand where they come from.

As time goes on, I become less oriented towards egalitarian outcomes. I have to say this statement resonates with me. If all men desired their freedom and liberty, they would already have it. The state exists because there are large bodies of people who go along with it.

Karl Hess learned this the hard way.

I agree with Mencken most of the time.

This quote is no exception.

More intelligent/more able to understand and accept rational argumentation =/= better

Although, and yes, I am quoting myself, I don’t mean to say that more intelligent shouldn’t mean richer, should one be able to turn that intelligence into riches.

I have no idea what =/= means.

It means does not equal.

Men are inheriently interested in liberty. It is not in his diginity to have to relies on welfare and does not like to leech off others. He is willing to do work for payment he deems fair and acceptable. It is his pride that is the safeguard of liberty.

You do not know what liberty is, nobody does. It’s an irrelevant idea, it’s a shame people on these boards are so attached to it.

I’m fairly certain most libertarians are libertarians because they simply happen to be the people who would benefit the most from increased freedom. Just like statists are statists because the state benefits them (or at least they think it does). we’re all just opportunists.

“In the long run, we’re all opportunists”, aye [;)] ?

  • “Copyrighted” by Nitroadict [H]

You may feel that way, although I’m not sure I do.

I certainly hope not. A market is ineffective if it is flat. There have to be winners and losers for the competitive process to work.

It is all a question of where you come from, what are you experiences and what is your take on people around you, so nobody is going to change anybodies opinion on here. But anyone who thinks this way I would ask: Where were you at Yorktown? How many times did you carry a rifle against foreign occupation? How many anti-serfdom revolts did you partake in? How many times have you found yourself on the street burning down the presidential palace and demanding greater political freedoms? Because I can tell you one thing: “the masses” have done it, countless times.

Everything we know about history says that ordinary people will fight for their freedom, when tyranny and violence becomes too much and when they see a way how they can lessen it. It is the job of those indoctrinated in an ideology who would be thinkers and leaders to show them how their ideology can provide a framework that is freer and more just than the existing state. (And while here Libertarianism has by far the most to offer because it means improvement on the whole width of the spectrum, it is not nearly the only one. Other doctrines, ideologies and movements have historicaly brought change for the better in a limited way ie in certain aspects.)

Complaining that actually it is the fault of the people itself smacks of excuses. In fact it reminds me of Commies. Ah if only man was not so selfish, ah if only he had more sense, then Communism could have worked! It reminds me of Marx. No it wasn`t the fault in his nonsense itself that it found no bridgehead in certain lands. No, never, it was the fault of those peoples, they were reactionary peoples by their very nature! Geneticaly! Maybe your vision too includes A New Libertarian Man?

Remember 50% of electorate anywhere does not vote. And many of those who do, do so very unenthusiasticaly. Instinctively they already know it is pointless and a sham. And the more ordinary you are the less likely you are to vote. It is actually the lawyers, the journalists, the proffesors and the likes who can not wait for election day. Most people are very private and disinterested, nay cynical (!) of politics. They just want to get on with their own thing. Splendid attributes for a crypto-libertarian, but no, they arent going to make the dissemenation any easier. In fact they are going to make it devilishley hard. They dont care about what you have to say. They have heard it all before.

Jet there we have Ron Paul. The other day I was watching a clip where he was saying his district was initialy a rural one with basicaly everyone a farmer. He held a meeting with them, told them he is going to vote against all farm subsidies, explained why - and they voted him in! Now do you think those farmers in his district were somehow extrodinary? You think somehow in this district there were totally different sort of farmers than everywhere else? You think there is a well of radiation in Pauls district that mutated everyone into a part of Menckens elite?? I`ve checked the RP forums. Nothing there tells me RP supporters are anything but ordinary people. (Albeit young, as are forumites everywhere.)

If you think you are going to instantenously convert millions to Anarcho-Capitalism, you are not going to. It sounds far too much like politics. But let tyranny rise, poverty increase, wait for a crisis and some war exhaustion, then start talking about say, secession. See how many rise their hands.

Cogent.