I don’t think Israel should have been re-established but no I wouldn’t attack it.
I also think that Israel is the biggest bastion of relative freedom in the middle east. They don’t hang gays, stone women, murder blasphemers, fire rockets out of children’s hospitals, teach kids to strive for martyrdom or strap kids with bombs and detonate them. All tactics commonly used by the Mujahideen.
For the record, I’m an Anarcho-capitalist and don’t think any state is legitimate.
Not really. This sort of thinking is only useful to make you irrelevant.
It is a good cop out in order to not have an opinion, but it doesn’t actually hold water.
I don’t know, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2787
Is that much better?
How is posting a pictures of Israeli bombing victims relevant to my charge that there is more personal freedom in Israel than in other middle eastern countries? I could post pictures of all the Israeli victims of suicide bombers too. It’s irrelevant to the point.
I’m an Atheist and a regular blasphemer. There’s only one country in the Middle East I could espouse my views without fear of being tried and executed for blasphemy, and that’s Israel. I know I wouldn’t want to be a woman or an open homosexual in any other middle eastern country either.
Now that is where it gets really, really complicated. How far back do you go?
As far back as you can go while meeting a burden of proof. Walter Block has a lecture on reparations that deals heavily with this issue in one of the Mises seminars that is on the website.
You can play dumb, but don’t make us for fools.
I was going to remind you that this position is BS to an anarchist, but then I remembered you’re the fanatically anti-muslim guy.
I say instead of worrying about the Israelis, people should worry about the entire region that surrounds them…you know, the same ones that started the 1000+ year Arab Slave Trade? In other words, the Muslims. I don’t get why so many people, including people on here, are so tolerant of the Islamic philosophy that is set on converting the rest of the world or destroying them.
I’m not suggesting all Muslims are bad; but the philosophy Islam promotes is one of conversion or destruction. Call it what it is. Everyone is so hard on the Jews when the huge elephant in the room is the freaking Muslims.
Perhaps you believe that is the philosophy Islam promotes- others would disagree quite strongly. Globally, what constitutes Islam isn’t as cut and dry as you just made it out to be. The usual argument back and forth when it comes to this- is someone posting Quranic or non-quranic sources where they take Islam to be advocating senseless violence, than me or someone else will post quotes from Quranic sources where it advocates the opposite. I don’t see most of the Muslim population out there engaging in some conversion or destruction poliy because they don’t believe that’s what Islam is about. Why would peaceful Muslims make the news anyway? That’s a boring story. Anyone who does engage in forceful conversion or destruction in my own opinion isn’t even Muslim- the term “hypocrite” is used often in Quran for that very type of person.
My point is, why pretend that “Islam” as a way of life is something you can narrow down- when there are all sorts of disagreements across the Muslim world? You only fight bogeymen that way.
The Israel situation is about a highly aggressive state- probably the only reason we’re talking about Israel as opposed to other brutal states is that they get heaps of US taxpayer money and their violence is usually excused. Why not just give all actors who engage in violence against innocence the same treatment? Whether Arab, Israeli, American, or whoever else. Just because there is some level of freedom of speech in America- in no way does that ever excuse all the violent actions of the American state. The path that the US and Israel are following- tell me that its only a matter of time before their own citizens see the brutality of a state, when it won’t be just directed at foreign countries anymore.
You sound like a typical apologist for the Islamic philosophy of convert or destroy. You do nothing to discuss the actual issue and instead neutralize specific topics by comparing Islam to other religions and Islamic culture to other cultures. It’s the equivalent of my saying, “Those Nazis were horrible people,” and you responding, “Well, Americans killed people too.” Congratulations on not responding to the issue.
Let me make it clearer for you. This issue is this: Islam is a philosophy that seeks to convert non-Muslim people or destroy them somehow. You all so adamantly speak of the evils of statism without so much as one person saying, “Well, capitalists have been known to let people starve!” You bunch of hypocrites who defend or dilute this philosophy of slavery.
Of course there were Nazis who didn’t believe in the movement; of course there are Muslims that are not seeking to convert others or destroy them. But to deny that the goal of Nazi Germany was to make an Aryan race and to deny the goal of Islam is to convert or destroy is completely ignorant. Anyone that responds to a question with a strawman is no better than the conformist pigs that have infiltrated American culture.
On the issue of relatives and the lesser evils, the British should have never left Palestine.
(And hey, that would have also been Mises’ position: As long as the British occupy territory, there won’t be any Portuguese, Spaniards, French, Belgian or Germans coming and occupying it - the least traumatic alternative for the natives. Such was his position as a German. See Omnipotent Government.)
Again I completely disagree. The goal of Islam is to persuade people with conversation and good action only to believe in the one God that constitutes reality. That’s it. I would say that your opinion of what the goal of Islam is, is bathed in ignorance. Its an ignorance that many people share and with good reason- when it comes to the validity of hadith’s and the faulty interpretations one can make in regards to Quranic Arabic it can get convoluted.
You can do your own research- try places like free-minds.org . I can certainly give you quotes from Quran myself that tell you that there is no compulsion allowed in religion, that no one can be forced to believe- but will you accept them or ignore them?
Faulty interpretation? You rent a Koran from a library and read it, deciphering and analyzing it for yourself.
As for my perspective, I listen to people who identify with Islam discuss their religion’s philosophy and movement. For instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e7Uxtt9rYA
Last I checked, the majority of all terrorism that the world has experienced has been fueled by the philosophy of convert or destroy.
As for the philosophy I’m speaking about, check these out. You’re right, I must have been crazy to associate the philosophy of Islam with slavery, conversion and destruction:
“Slay them wherever you find them…Idolatry is worse than carnage…Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)
“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)
“Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)
“Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Surah 8:36-)
“Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)
“Blessed are the believers…who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)…These are the heirs of Paradise…” (Surah 23:1-5-)
“You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity.” (Surah 24:33-)
“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)
Why did you cut out the parts of 2:190 that don’t help your argument? Did you research it yourself? Or did you find these quotes from some anti-islam website?
(2:190) You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. (This should be important to remember in every case of war in Islam)
And the proper translation is that persecution is worse fate than slaughter, not idolatry.
(8:61) If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient
(4:90) Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.
(10:99)“Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?”
(60:8)God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly.(The reference to the jews and christians you cannot take as friends are very specific, those that persecute and attack you- thats why this quote exists, and thats why it specifically references those people in the verses after 5:51)
(88:21-22) You shall remind, for your mission is to deliver this reminder. You have no power over them.
Ok just like I said, you gave me some quotes, and now I gave you some counter-quotes. If I’m to guess from past experience, you won’t care about any of the quotes I listed and will go on to believe what you want to about Islam. That’s fine by me. Sorry for sounding jaded about it. Has the majority of the world’s terrorism come from the convert/destroy philosophy really? Or is there some political motivation behind each and every one of those actions? Its always been the latter with religion used only to gain some type of sympathy.
I identify with Islam, why is my word irrelevant? I gave you a website where plenty of people identify with Islam, why not check that out? If you’re ever in New York I could have you meet plenty of people who identify with Islam and don’t consider it to be a convert by the sword philosophy.
Let me address this as simply as possible. Let’s take the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Forgive me if I have mistaken your argument, but it seems as though you make the same argument against the quotes I supported that liberals do against the second amendment. Namely, that a specific clause in it ought to be ignored.
Take “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)
Despite any quotes used to negate it, it still exists unto its own. Like the second amendment, liberals often say, “‘In order to have a well regulated Militia’ is the essence of the amendment,” when in actuality, in researching the anti-federalist papers, it is very clear that the statement, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,” is key to the survival of American citizens in preventing an outright tyranny.
Basically, by your transcribing (4:90) “Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them,” it does nothing to negate “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)…unless, of course, you’re claiming Allah’s word is contradictory in the Koran. Are you?
Regardless of that (not intended to be a red herring btw), my point still stands. The reference to the Koran exists and has to hold as much weight as any other. You must agree with that, right? Makes me think of you defending the statist Obama’s assault on the public sector by saying, “Well, one day he did say God Bless America, so he must want what’s best for our country.” Still doesn’t take away the fact that we’re going to be legally bound to purchase health insurance here soon.
48:29 doesn’t stand on its own just like that so simply. The references to disbelievers in the passages directly before :29 are in reference to specific disbelievers who fight you and prevent Muslims from engaging in worship. Why ignore that context?
The Quran definitely does not advocate “turning the other cheek” against those that violently aggress and persecute so I can understand your uneasiness- although it does advocate offerings of peace and accepting any offers of peace.
Suppose Isreal were an aggressive PDA, Isrealcorp. And Hamastech were their rival. What is your stance on the issuet?"
No, it doesn’t. Neither does any other state. I want to see the state of Israel dismantled as much as I want to see any other state dismantled.
It’s really strange how many so called libertarians end up brainwashed by the lefty media into hating the state of Israel more than other states. Why is that? Actually, there are other more oppressive states than Israel out there if you care about people being oppressed and killed by a government.
The thugs in charge of the state of Israel are doing what thugs from any other country would do in the same situation, I don’t see any reason to single them out.
Well it is a reaction to a heavy amount of pro-israel propaganda, although unfortunately it also gives anti-semites a voice. Media talks about Israel and other countries involved with the United States more than oppressive African regimes, so thats what most people are going to complain about. If the US was giving the highest amount of its financial aid to Robert Mugabe, perhaps the thread title would be different. Although there are brutal regimes like Saudi Arabia that just never seem to get anyone’s interest.