Does libertarianism promote the dignity of the poor?

But even here I would hold most of my reservations on leftism because it is most likely to be a “top down” intellectual class (“philosopher kings”) managment system -that would ultimately be very destructive and ugly.

Excuse me, but isn’t that how any management system is supposed to work? With supposedly smarter, more knowledgable, more reliable people on top and less knowledgeable/experienced people beneath them? Or at least with the theoretical work being done by the managers and engineers, while the rank and file does more practical and structured task?!

Anyway, show me how staterun bureaucracies do give more dignity to the poor then market and privately run initiatives.

Excuse me, but isn’t that how any management system is supposed to work?

How are these intellectuals getting any feedback, how do they know what “knowledge” is, what’s more reliable is,etc? It doesn’t work in a void. That’s the whole 101 point of any libertarian critique against socialism.

An entrpreneur is taking a real risk,and meeting real demands of people. He can’t live too abstractly, or be too lofty in his ambitions

Likewise, it would be probably be much more difficult for a city state to start abstracting real human actions and resources than a massive federilzed state. Pure intellectual dictation needs a very large bureacracy and fuzzy dictation in order for it to not look as stupid and empty as it really is

Altruism is impossible in terms of praxeology.

Careful with this, Praxeology is a science of action. Which means any methodology it employs will not allow for dichotomy, as the logic itself is (by neccessity) deterministic in nature - hence it will not allow a dichotomy of certain words. “Selfish” in thiscase, would justbe an empty set place holder (like the number 1 in math).

Any conclusions you wish to draw from this are philisophical, not scientific

I wasn’t talking about “socialism” or any state scheme. I was talking about virtually any real life organisation be it a company, a club, a church, a university or what ever. None of them is unable to overcome those real life problems you raised, which are certainly there and which is why managers need to be skilled and well-trained.

And yes there are your more intellectually minded, more people oriented and also your more practically orientated people in any of those organisation.

Well,

The facts are alwayschanging in the such a world in this regard, so I have no clue what isor isn’t needed there. I have no concept in my mind what is or is not qualified for such a position, because I have no feedback mechanism.

Smart and qualified would be empty sets to me.

If you’re saying we have a tendency to hierarchical type structures, I would agree to that - which is partly why I brought up the entrepreneur.

vive la insurrection replied on Sun, Jul 15 2012 3:51 PM

Altruism is impossible in terms of praxeology.

Careful with this, Praxeology is a science of action. Which means any methodology it employs will not allow for dichotomy, as the logic itself is (by neccessity) deterministic in nature - hence it will not allow a dichotomy of certain words. “Selfish” in thiscase, would justbe an empty set place holder (like the number 1 in math).

I did not understand that, but I would like to. Can you rephrase it?

Regards

Let me start off by prefacing that praxeology is a science,not a methodology

The Misean methodolgy is one such methodology that can be used in AE, which is a prioi in nature - which essentially makes it function like math.

Just using Misean methodology as an example -whatever word he wishes to use as the necessity of action (Man, the Individual, I, etc) could just be seen as a number, used to represent the logic of action.

As with math, you simply cant have a number contradict itself. Ex: I can’t have “Man” and “Not Man” floating around with the same meaning. 1=1, a=a, selfish=selfish. A square has 4 sides

Does that make sense? Did that help? It’s just an empty place holder /’ useful perameter

Once again, there may be selfish or egoistic implications or presuppositions at play, but in so much as we are in the science of action, we can not appeal to it - as it is a different category - that category would be philosophy

Torsten replied on Sun, Jul 15 2012 3:04 PM

But even here I would hold most of my reservations on leftism because it is most likely to be a “top down” intellectual class (“philosopher kings”) managment system -that would ultimately be very destructive and ugly.

Excuse me, but isn’t that how any management system is supposed to work? With supposedly smarter, more knowledgable, more reliable people on top and less knowledgeable/experienced people beneath them? Or at least with the theoretical work being done by the managers and engineers, while the rank and file does more practical and structured task?!

I think he was referring to the following fact: Marxist intellectuals divide
the population in three partitions:

  1. those who consciously participate in Marxist class strugle fighting for the oppressed
  2. those who consciously participate in Marxist class strugle fighting for the oppressor
  3. those who are politically alienated, thus serving the interests of the oppressor

Since the Marxist intellectuals are (allegedly) not alienated and (allegedly) fight
for the oppressed, then it is right and necessary for them to rule, even if the
people do not want it
- because remember, those who disagree with Marxism are
either oppressors or alienated. This is why Marxist societies become an
“intellectuocracy”, that is, rule by the Marxist intellectuals. They call it a
“dictatorship of the proletariat”, but their dictatorship is as beneficial to the
proletariat as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is popular and democratic. In
both cases, the reality is the precise opposite of the name.

Regards

You are refering to Platos Politeia. There’d be more then one reading on this. I guess a “libertarian readong on Platos Politiea” would be a good idea, but a thread on it own.

Now we are debating altruism. Could we also have a look at what “dignity” means? I guess it’s different from material welfare.

@Fides_et_Ratio: I have a distaste for Blockean libertarianism, as well. Take, for example, Block’s Defending the Undefendable - while he does make a great logical case that many dishonorable professions should not be illegal (e.g. pimping, drug dealing, etc.), he completely overlooks the social importance of not allowing certain kinds of behavior to be “above ground”.

I still need to study the issue in more depth but I think prostitution may be a good example where in every society I am aware of there has tended to be a half-heartedly enforced illegality. I think what is going on here is that if prostitution were just above-ground, out there, no problems, can be advertised anywhere, etc. etc. it would have an erosive effect on the family structure, that is, the prostitution industry would succeed in reeling in men who - so long as they keep it out of mind - would rather not partake. But then, at the same time, prostitution is an integral part of human nature - every culture ever has had prostitution, legal or illegal. So, the “enlightened ruler” will find the compromise in formally prohibiting it (no advertisements, no obviously standing out on street corners showing your leg, etc.) but will informally turn a blind eye so long as it is not blatant enough to catch the attention of the bourgeois middle class.

But Block doesn’t consider any of this. He just follows this lobotomized version of Rothbard’s propertarianism - the pimp and the prostitute aren’t violating anyone’s property rights, so no one has any business doing anything against them. In fact, the pimp is to be lauded as a hero of the free market in that he risks his life and property in order to produce a service demanded by the market despite the constant threat of harassment and imprisonment by the State.

On the particular issue you raised, I have always felt that Block has a crypto-Randian air about him. Of course, the passage you cited is complete horse-shit. Private charity is absolutely not a violation of any kind of Darwinian principle of fitness unless - as vive pointed out - you’re also going to espouse pulling anti-biotics and basically closing down every non-primitive economic activity as a “crutch for the weak.” Think how much more evolutionarily fit we would be if we all had to walk everywhere instead of driving or flying!

As for your wider concern that this makes “libertarians look bad”, I don’t think Block is exactly a mouthpiece of the libertarian movement. One could argue that he is the heir of the propertarian wing of libertarianism as he is, I think, the closest living disciple of Rothbard. But propertarians do not comprise a majority even among anarchist libertarians, let alone libertarians generally.

I want to note that both you and Block are equally confused about the relationship between the Darwinian principle and the social order. Social Darwinism as a prescription is ridiculous. But Darwinism applied to the study of human social behavior is a branch of science called evolutionary psychology. This science is not prescriptive, that is, it doesn’t say “the fittest ought to survive”, it is descriptive, as in, “those who survive and reproduce are those that have been selected.” This is definitional, so it’s not even up for debate. Block is arguing that there is an ought element to this (we ought not give to charity because, Block is contending, it interferes with Darwinian selection).

In addition to evolutionary psychology, there is sociology or the study of the evolution of human society itself. Evolutionary psychology stops around 10,000 years ago at the Agricultural Revolution because human culture and technology began to change at a rate that far outstripped the capacity of genetic evolution to keep up*. Nevertheless, the selection principles at work on the kinds of ideas that survive (memetics) move just as rapidly as cultural/technological evolution. In fact, cultural/technological evolution can be thought of as nothing more than the evolution of ideas (and their effects in the material world, that is, the technological devices that humans produce with these ideas). Sociology is the branch of science that studies these fast-moving factors. And if we restrict our attention to just the voluntary aspect of human interaction within sociology, we are talking about the science of economics.

So, the market is absolutely a Darwinian process, just as social evolution (the evolution of ideas) is, just as the evolution of human nature (evolutionary psychology) is, and so on. Humans are not at all exempt from evolution. And ideas absolutely do have evolutionary consequences on the human population. Bad ideas even have bad evolutionary consequences (e.g. tax-funded welfare programs that subsidize birth rates among poor mothers). But I am shocked that Block would suggest that even private charity is a violation of the Darwinian principle - he needs his head examined for that one.

Clayton -

*This explains a lot of the suffering and misery in the world, by the way - our caveman brains literally do not know how to process our current environment.

Don’t appeal to authority (logical fallacy). Libertarians (like all other humans) are free to subjectively value or dislike whatever they want, depending on their level of knowledge in each particular field. Block has rubbed me the wrong way more than once and sometimes I’ve found him to be borderline sociopathic.

Ironically, in this case, Block is merely showing ignorance (narrow-mindedness, short-sightedness) about how complex biological systems adapt to (find fitness maxima in) a complex and dynamically changing environment. In optimization theory (genetic algorithms, etc.) it is a well known fact that diversity of features (i.e. inclusion of genome features beyond the ones which seem to be superior for the present environment) increases the adaptability of a complex system and also allows it to explore/locate better (more fit) maxima than the present. In other words: “What goes around, comes around”.

Charity is prevalent (and considered moral or “good”) today exactly because the societies and humans who had practiced it through millenia are the ones who out-survived the ones who didn’t. One could easily argue that charity (give first, and maybe receive something later) is a superior feature – from a purely Darwinistic fitness perspective – both at the level of an individual acting agent and as a widely accepted societal norm.

[asjective] evolution =/= Darwinian.

Charles Darwin is just the guy that postulated a complex hypothesis how biological diversity did arise by otherwise unintelligent processes (mutation, recombination + selection = biological variance and progress). That selection btw. isn’t really value neutral, but actually elimination of the unfit from reproduction.

While there is also change and selection taking place on markets, in politics and in society as a whole, it’s for sure done by intelligent agents. So there is some remarkable difference between the two.

I’m in agreement with z1235.

To answer the question, in the title of this thread, I’ll depart from the opinions of most of the posters by looking at things from a different angle. The question is “Does Libertarianism promote the dignity of the poor?”. Most have pointed out that Libertarianism doesn’t attempt to promote the dignity of the poor. Other ideologies attempt to promote the dignity of the poor, they attempt to make the poor better off, thinking that this genuinely does help the poor. Most common of these methods is redistribution of wealth. A person who isn’t very economically literate will say, “Well this makes the poor better off, without redistributive policies or practices the poor would starve and face other unsavory hardships.” Here is where the saying “Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day but teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.” is worth mentioning.

To really help a person you must know the person’s problem but also know why they are facing the problem in the first place. Something most charitable, good hearted people, overlook. Poverty is a problem but the root of it consists of psychological, sociological, and political conditions. One of which is low self-esteem, something that has many consequences, consequences which have a profound impact on a person’s life. A person who believes they are worthless and incapable of being productive, independent people, only have that belief reinforced by many attitudes held by the people who are trying to help them. Simply giving them money won’t help them in the long term, in the short term yes, but in the long term it actually hurts them. (In that they become dependent on other people.) The Libertarians on the other hand believe people should take responsibility for their own problems, instead of relying on others, this “tough love” is more likely to help the poor in that it forces them to become independent. In a way we are promoting the dignity of the poor more than anyone else.

@Clayton

You call Rothbard/Block kind of Libertarianism “propertarianism”. What is the kind of
Libertarianism that you subscribe to? Does it have a specific name? What is your view
towards charity?

Private charity must of course be legal. But what kind of private charity do you think
is actually beneficial?

Is there a room in your world for government-enforced “charity” (I put it under quotes
because if it is involuntary, it is not proper charity)? If not, why not? And how
would the handicapped, orphans and other vulnerable people be provided for? Can we
trust wealthy individuals to be charitable enough?

Regards

@ Serpentis-Lucis

I agree that certain ideologies - namely Marxism - which have ostensibly attempted to
help the poor actually make people worse off.

However, the disgrace of Marxism does not mean we should embrace anarcho-capitalism.

How are orphans, handicapped or other vulnerable people to be provided for?

Or, what if a man was simply born with a low IQ and he cannot produce enough money
to have a decent standard of living?

Would you not support the proposal of Milton Freedman, to give negative income tax
to the poor?

Regards

I actually don’t even like the label “libertarian”; if anything, I would call myself anti-state. Even that can convey the wrong meaning as I do not think elimination of the State is the highest value, merely that it’s a goal that we would all greatly benefit from working towards, kind of like being anti-malaria.

Charity is multi-dimensional - it’s a word that masks a lot of complexity.

Whatever kind the donor himself or herself believes is actually beneficial. Charity is partly a genetic phenomenon (kin-loyalty, tribe-loyalty, etc.) and partly a social phenomenon (the human brain is wired for sympathy towards our own kind). But the primary logistical problem facing producers of charity is a knowledge problem, just like the problem facing producers in any industry. This is why centrally-planned charity is such a dismal failure. Every dollar given to a mooching loafer is a dollar not given to a starving child. Don’t you see that that is actually anti-charity? So, charity is as much a problem of knowing who not to give to as it is knowing who to give to, and for what.

Well, can we trust wealthy individuals to produce the world’s oil or run the Internet? The fact is, they don’t. Millions of small investors pool their funds through stock shares to become part-owners in corporations that produce oil and run the Internet. Private charity operates in exactly the same way. The vast majority of charity comes from people who are not wealthy, at least, not relative to their country of origin.

There is no room for government-enforced “charity” - not only is it not charity as you note, it’s actually anti-charity. Money is being diverted from the hands of private individuals - who would have given to charity anyway - and most of that money is being placed in the hands of people who are just mooching off the system. Almost no one who is receiving government welfare in the US would be at risk of perishing without it.

Clayton -

I don’t attempt to speak for Clayton, but here’s how I feel on government-enforced “charity”: absolutely immoral. If someone is starving, while one might consider it immoral to let them suffer, isn’t it immoral to steal to redistribute wealth?

People will help each other when they don’t feel they are being robbed by a government, and then, I believe, this redistribution of wealth (done voluntarily) will help more than theft by bureaucrats. We don’t need to rely on the very wealthy (billionaires) to help the poor. People that are moderately wealthy will help the less fortunate out. No, not everyone will, by there is no reason to believe that enough people will to take care of those in need. That’s how it was I the united States before the income tax and the welfare/warfare state we know today. There was not many people dying of starvation or lack of medical attention or any other ailment that might “disadvantage” them. See Democracy in America by Tocqueville for a foreigner’s perspective of this.

As others have said, while charity isn’t always the best thing for the poor, government welfare programs/policies hurt the people they claim to be trying to help more than any other group of people. Think about it: even though we have food stamps, there are still people that go hungry. Why not just admit the program does not fight hunger, but actually promotes it and stagnates the increase in the standard of living of the poor?

No different than any other action, only voluntary actions have the potential to be beneficial. Again, the welfare/warfare policies (all enforced by coercion) are easy to cite as counter-examples. I can’t think of any sort of forced action that can be more beneficial than an alternative without coercion.

And Clayton, fantastic description and elaboration on this concept!

@Clayton

I still fear that private charity could not be enough to provide a decent standard of
living to vulnerable people. I think it is fair to give guarantees.

Don’t you support any kind of government involvement? How about the following
proposals:

  1. A negative income tax for the poor.

  2. Subsidized education, housing and healthcare for the poor.

  3. A “minimum charity funding”, that is, each citizen is required give a minimum
    amount to a certified charity.

  4. When you donate $1 to a certified charity, the government gives another 50 cents.

  5. Conventional government-run charity, but at the county level. Thus it would be more
    answerable to the taxpayers, would have better information about the local problems,
    and the competition between counties would greatly increase efficiency and diminish
    authoritarianism.

None of the proposals above is acceptable?

Regards

@ Phi est aureum replied on Sun, Jul 15 2012 6:52 PM

I don’t attempt to speak for Clayton, but here’s how I feel on government-enforced “charity”: absolutely immoral. If someone is starving, while one might consider it immoral to let them suffer, isn’t it immoral to steal to redistribute wealth?

I’m no philosopher, and I certainly need to get better informed on this subject. But
I believe that the right to property is not universal and absolute. I think it is fair
to tax 10% out of a millionaire’s income and give it to orphanages. The life, basic
education and health-care of the orphans are more imporant than a man keeping the full
$1000000 he earns instead of keeping just $900000.

Regards