Economic Calculation Problem Debunked!??

:open_mouth: Dun dun dunnnnnn

Found this and wondering what you guys think:

http://www.cvoice.org/cv3cox.htm

Robin Cox lives on the Sierra de la Contraviesa in southern Spain ‘trying to be a peasant’, and has an interest in environmental matters.

He makes a much better peasant than economist, thats fo sho

Peasant or no peasant, whoever wrote it does not understand what ordinal preferences are nor what opportunity cost is.

  1. I guess Mises has finally met his match, poor fellow.

How foolish of him to miss such a simple, yet profound idea. “All wealth would be produced on a strictly voluntary basis. Goods and services would be provided directly for self determined need.”

You make whatever you want. You take whatever you want. That’s all there is to it. No slavery, no coercion, no scarcity. And best of all, no planning whatsoever. All voluntary and self determined. No central planners, no local planners, no democratic decisons, no Abraham Maslows to yammer on about basic needs. You are free at last, son. All purley voluntary.

  1. But I guess it’s not Mises’ fault, really. What can you expect from a bourgeois mind? No wonder he fell prey to that “key myth of bourgeois economics – namely, that our wants are essentially “infinite” and the resources to meet them, limited.” Didn’t he realize there are enough yachts to go round for everyone? That it but our silly adherence to outdated myths that blind our feeble imaginations? We can all live like the Medicis, all 6 billion of us can summer on the Riviera, drinking champagne and living the life of the Most Interesting Man in the World. Our self determined need will make sure it happens.

Just go to the local commissary and take whatever exists. You need it. And if you feel like never working again, hey that’s OK. Work is voluntary.

Dave, tell me you didn’t actually read the whole thing.

I skimmed part E, since that’s about economic calculation.

It basically says accounting and banking are unnecessary. Money is unnecessary. They use up resources that could otherwise be used to realize a socialist system.

There is no rationing mechanism necessary since socialism = utopia.

Z, it’s my one vice

tl;dr - Looks like a lot of prattle to me.

Clayton -

Well well well - a little birdie informed me that an article I wrote some years back had been posted on this site and had attracted some comments. So I came here with high expectations of scintillating insights and sharp logic. How disappointing! Not a single one of you has offered any kind of serious criticism at all. Instead the responses are riddled with ad hominens, sweeping and unsupported generalisations, not to mention downright misinformation. Shame on you. You know, Ive had intelligent debates with some anarcho-caps before - even if those willing to engage in such debates seem to be somewhat thin on the ground - but this is the pits, frankly. If you are going to attack an argument, you need to get into it, grapple with its logic and check its facts - not piously, and not a little pompously, issue ex catherdra type statements that claim to have penetrated its essential core.

Oh yes and some you guys seem to lack a sense of ironic humour aboiut my “peasant” lifestyle. But thats par for the course I guess…

Nice try, focus only on the personal attacks and ignore the majority of the actual replies, that fact is you cannot reply to any of the queries here, but instead resort to your high brow personal attacks.

Forgetting all your abstractions, answer the this simple question first: There are very few yachts in this world and very many people who want them, how will you determine who gets them, when there is no pricing system and no money to determine a yachts value ?

How laughable. Im accused of resorting tp personal attacks and ignoring what was actually said when that is actually the very point that i was making about my critics here! What are the “queries” you allude to? Hitherto, what Ive not seen on this forum is any genuine attempt to enquire but only an attempt to carp and snipe from the comfort zone of your dogmatic shells.

If you actually attended to what I wrote instead of supercilliously dismissing it in advance you might have figured out a reasonable answer to the question you pose from the information I gave. I certainly do not presuppose a superabundance of everything under anarcho communism - yachts included - and, in fact, went out of my way to suggest supplementary non-monetrary mechanisms of rationing in the more obvious cases. I dare say though that a distinction needs to be drawn between wanting a yacht in the sense of owning it and making use of it. Even under capitalism you can hire a yacht for a day without owning it and if there is a great demand for using yachts (which today mostly lie idle in some marina for 95% of the time) I see no great difficulty in accommodating the purported demand for yachting through such simple procedures as sharing or taking turns. Certainly it would mean a lot more people would get to go on a yacht than is the case where a yacht remains your exclusive property. And that is the point surely and why anarcho-communism trumps capitalism hands down any day in the efficient use of goods and resources

And how will you create the institutional incentives necessary for people to be willing to share their yachts with anyone and everyone?

robbo,

I’m very sorry, but my self determined needs tell me that I need a yacht 365 days a year, one unsullied by other people ever on it at all.

I am sure you will understand my needs and make no effort to hinder my attaining them.

Also, I have worked too long to ever work again. I am sure this will not be a problem, since all work is voluntary after all. So I hope you will make sure that you or someone else volunteers to hand polish my yacht every day from stem to stern. I run a tight ship and my self determined needs require someone to attend to it.

Please find volunteer armed guards to surround my yacht whenever I am not there, because I know some people will try to sneak on. Those parasitic bourgeois dogs don’t understand that all they need do is ask and they will get a brand new yacht for themselves, complete with a small army of volunteer butlers and maids to serve them. They just don’t get the right way of thinking.

I just have one question for you robbo, did you finish college?

Im not trying to embarrase you I just want to know.

@ Dave

You didn’t address any part of the article and just took it all personally, maybe he has cracked the calculation problem? Merely dismissing someone’s view because it’s contrary to what you know to be correct and its on the internet and conflicting with an authority figure reminds me a lot of some other ideologies that I’ve encountered

@Robbo

I will happily do an in depth critique of your article, if you have some inherent misunderstanding of Mises I’ll identify it, if you are correct then I will say that you are and I will incorporate your ideas into my way of thinking, if something you advocate is fallacious then I will attack it, that’s my promise to you, I merely hope that you extend the same courtesy to me. I’m sorry that so far you’ve received such disrespect and child’s arguments. In the defense of the people here however, most have given up writing long responses because they would mostly be preaching to the choir who wasn’t even listening. People here have heard and critiqued far to many people of all ideologies to take any one very seriously off the bat.

One reason people are responding with short jabs is that the article is way too long to be suitable for dissection on this forum. Usually a few paragraphs as a top-level post can be handled at a time, but there are so many points raised in your essay it would simply be impractical to cover them all in one forum thread. It could all be covered, but it would have to be broken up into multiple threads to have a realistic chance of coming to any kind of resolution. If you’d like a response, highlight some point in particular. Here, I’ll start with your point about “effective demand”:

This whole part just seems to say that a price is not a perfect reflection of how much people want something. However, the Austrian case does not seem to be based on the notion that a price is a perfect reflection, but simply that it is a useful reflection. Besides, it hardly seems to carry much force that some products are beyond some people’s price range, when the vast majority of products (such as groceries) are completely affordable by the vast majority of people in capitalist countries.

I think it’s also important to keep in mind the fact that prices also communicate scarcity, not just demand. For example, a first edition copy of Pride and Prejudice is expensive not just because their is a high demand for it among literary connoisseurs, but also because there are so few copies of it in existence. If the consumer demands of everyone in an economy could be met without having to produce anything, i.e. by magic, which I guess Robin Cox is saying that capitalism prevents from happening, then we wouldn’t need prices or economic calculation to begin with.

On another note, it appears that Robin Cox is committing the nirvana fallacy by just hand-waving all arguments against socialism by saying they’d be overcome if we were to truly embrace it as a society. But in all fairness I didn’t have the patience to read the entire article, so maybe I’m short changing him.

Debunk the history of the soviet union if you want to debunk the ECP.

Renting out the yacht, is not going to work, because if you knew anything about a yacht, when it gets used it can be used to for weeks. Also the renting out still does not explain away the fact that without money and a price system you can not determine who gets the yacht, because there will be higher demand even with your ludicrous system of giving it away for one day only. If the solution to the problem is then doing lucky draws, then all you will do is elimate the yacht business.

Neodoxy.

Let me make clear what I was thinking and doing in the previous posts.

The OP’s solution to the calculation problem, as I understood it, is to deny the existence of scarcity. You may have seen him calling scarcity a “key myth of bourgeois economics.” A myth. Like Thor and Odin and Zeus and Jupiter. A myth. There is no scarcity.

That is the key to his solution of the calculation problem. Obviously, if there is no scarcity, there is no need to calculate anything. An endless supply of everything will provide everyone with all they want. It also makes working uneccesary. And indeed, in the OP’s post, he says this explicitly. No work needed, it’s all voluntary. You will get everything you see as being your need. Everything. Needs are going to be self defined [=anything at all] and will be fulfilled.

So that we have ample evidence of the OP’s chain of reasoning here. There is no scarcity. Therefore there is no need to work, to deny anyone any desire whatsoever, and of course, no need to calculate.

Having summarized his position, the next step in discussing it is to draw the logical conclusions that flow from it. If the conclusions are absurd, that proves the initial assumption is incorrect. This is a cornerstone of logical thinking which I hope we all take or granted. Well, what flows from the OP’s initial assumptions are absurd indeed, as I hope I have shown in the earlier posts.

Hope this has increased your understanding.