Economic Calculation, What is at the center?

[Esuric]

@DD5

Ensuric, Here this is for you: (no offense Reasoning)

This is almost too funny. I’ve never seen someone so afraid to answer a direct, honest and simple question.

[Stranger]

@Reasoning

@Stranger

You need capital to build a warship. If this capital does not already exist at your disposal, in the exact time and at the exact place that you will build the warship, in the exact quantity that you know to be needed to build this warship, then how are you going to build a warship?

This is true but is not related to the question. It is perfectly possible to obtain the necessary capital to build a warship without the use of a price system.

How?

[Stranger]

@filc

@Stranger

You need capital to build a warship. If this capital does not already exist at your disposal, in the exact time and at the exact place that you will build the warship, in the exact quantity that you know to be needed to build this warship, then how are you going to build a warship?

The planner has a schematic, and a recipe of items necessary. He has a whip. I think it can be done. Whether he wastes half of a nations resources, or kills half of his population to do it is irrelevant.

He will kill half of his population, send the other half to the gulag, and no warship will come out of the process. There will be a rapid consumption of resources and that will be all.

[filc]

@DD5

At least you don’t claim that this is Mises’ position in the socialist calculation argument. Correct?

It’s not called Socialist Calculation Argument, nor is it called Economic Calculation Problem of Socialism.

It’s called The Economic Calculation Problem (PERIOD).

Oh suprise suprise, the first sentance of WIki explains it quite nicely. Notice that it mentions the “Price Mechanism”.

The problem referred to is that of how to distribute resources rationally in an economy. The free market solution is the price mechanism, wherein people individually have the ability to decide how a good should be distributed based on their willingness to give money for it.

[filc]

@Stranger

He will kill half of his population, send the other half to the gulag, and no warship will come out of the process. There will be a rapid consumption of resources and that will be all.

Stranger here is a real challenge for you. Try posting something that isn’t an assertion, IE backed up with something other then yourself.

[Esuric]

I’m going to repeat this because it deserves a response:

@DD5

Since when is the socialist utopia about being able to use what Capitalism has left it and being able to hang on for a while? Why are we even discussing this nonsense?

This is the whole point, actually. Maybe you’re not familiar with the socialist doctrine, but it is the final stage of human development, according to the socialists. Feudalism made way for capitalism, and capitalism must give way to socialism. The socialist calculation debate is not some hypothetical historical ‘what if’ scenario. It doesn’t ask what the world ‘would have looked like’ if it never discovered markets, or developed the price mechanism. Mises is telling the world that the ‘last and final stage of human development’ will lead to the end of civilization.

And then he’s saying that NeoClassical (walrasian) economics is defunct when it comes to analyzing and explaining real world phenomena.

[Stranger]

@filc

@Stranger

He will kill half of his population, send the other half to the gulag, and no warship will come out of the process. There will be a rapid consumption of resources and that will be all.

Stranger here is a real challenge for you. Try posting something that isn’t an assertion, IE backed up with something other then yourself.

That’s not very challenging, although for you I admit it could cause problems. Illiteracy is hard to overcome.

[DD5]

@Esuric

@DD5

Ensuric, Here this is for you: (no offense Reasoning)

This is almost too funny. I’ve never seen someone so afraid to answer a direct, honest and simple question.

I answered your question.

Ensuric do you agree with this also?

@Flic

The planner has a schematic, and a recipe of items necessary. He has a whip. I think it can be done. Whether he wastes half of a nations resources, or kills half of his population to do it is irrelevant. "

And Flic will also insist that this is consistent with the argument put forward by Mises. Do you agree? Because it is almost too funny for me also, how you are either clueless about the topic, or you’re not, and you just won’t debate them.

[Reasoning]

@Stranger

@Reasoning

@Stranger

You need capital to build a warship. If this capital does not already exist at your disposal, in the exact time and at the exact place that you will build the warship, in the exact quantity that you know to be needed to build this warship, then how are you going to build a warship?

This is true but is not related to the question. It is perfectly possible to obtain the necessary capital to build a warship without the use of a price system.

How?

“You there! You have the scientific knowledge of how to build a warship. Go hire the necessary number of laborers and obtain the necessary materials.”

We would expect such a system to be rife with inefficiency but nonetheless it does indeed permit the construction of a warship.

Hayek agrees:

“There is no reason to expect that production would stop [under Socialism], or that the authorities would find difficulty in using all the available resources somehow, or even that output would be permanently lower than it had been before planning started . . . . [We should expect] the excessive development of some lines of production at the expense of others and the use of methods which are inappropriate under the circumstances. We should expect to find overdevelopment of some industries at a cost which was not justified by the importance of their increased output and see unchecked the ambition of the engineer to apply the latest development elsewhere, without considering whether they were economically suited in the situation. In many cases the use of the latest methods of production, which could not have been applied without central planning, would then be a symptom of a misuse of resources rather than a proof of success.” - Friedrich Hayek

[filc]

@Stranger

That’s not very challenging, although for you I admit it could cause problems. Illiteracy is hard to overcome.

My Illiteracy implies that you write more then a 1 sentence response genius.

[Stranger]

@Reasoning

“You there! You have the scientific knowledge of how to build a warship. Go hire the necessary number of laborers and obtain the necessary materials.”

The planner does not know who has the knowledge to build a warship beyond his own knowledge of how to build a warship. If the planner does not know, he cannot pick out someone who does know.

[DD5]

@Esuric

Mises is telling the world that the ‘last and final stage of human development’ will lead to the end of civilization.

And for the 100th time, I agree, so what the F$3K do you want. I haven’t said anything that would contradict the above. Stop the bickering and move on already. This is getting boring.

[Stranger]

@filc

@Stranger

That’s not very challenging, although for you I admit it could cause problems. Illiteracy is hard to overcome.

My Illiteracy implies that you write more then a 1 sentence response genius.

Ha, I don’t even understand what you’re saying.

[Esuric]

@DD5

I answered your question.

No you didn’t.

@DD5

Ensuric do you agree with this also?

@Flic

The planner has a schematic, and a recipe of items necessary. He has a whip. I think it can be done. Whether he wastes half of a nations resources, or kills half of his population to do it is irrelevant. "

Yes, that statement is 100% correct. Now, can you answer my question?

[filc]

@Stranger

The planner does not know who has the knowledge to build a warship beyond his own knowledge of how to build a warship. If the planner does not know, he cannot pick out someone who does know.

He finds out. It’s quite simple. It may take him XYZ years but I’m sure he can find the expertise necessary. Or he can broadcast it on his socialist propoganda broadcast station asking for patriots to come help build the warship. Other socialists would be happy to join in and help, starving themselves in the process maybe, but happy to join.

[Esuric]

@Reasoning

Hayek agrees:

“There is no reason to expect that production would stop [under Socialism], or that the authorities would find difficulty in using all the available resources somehow, or even that output would be permanently lower than it had been before planning started . . . . [We should expect] the excessive development of some lines of production at the expense of others and the use of methods which are inappropriate under the circumstances. We should expect to find overdevelopment of some industries at a cost which was not justified by the importance of their increased output and see unchecked the ambition of the engineer to apply the latest development elsewhere, without considering whether they were economically suited in the situation. In many cases the use of the latest methods of production, which could not have been applied without central planning, would then be a symptom of a misuse of resources rather than a proof of success.” - Friedrich Hayek

I wanted to avoid appeals to authority, though that’s usually the only way to shut DD5 up (and even then, he sometimes continues his nonsense). I really want him to answer my question, though. But now he’s either going to say (a) we don’t understand Hayek’s position, or (b) Hayek didn’t ‘really’ understand Mises’ position.

[Stranger]

@filc

@Stranger

The planner does not know who has the knowledge to build a warship beyond his own knowledge of how to build a warship. If the planner does not know, he cannot pick out someone who does know.

He finds out. It’s quite simple. It may take him XYZ years but I’m sure he can find the expertise necessary. Or he can broadcast it on his socialist propoganda broadcast station asking for patriots to come help build the warship. Other socialists would be happy to join in and help, starving themselves in the process maybe, but happy to join.

And what if one million people suggest one million different ways to build a warship? How does he tell apart those who really can build a warship and those who just want to swindle resources from him? How does he choose who he will allocate resources to? Because that is the fundamental problem of economic calculation, allocating scarce resources between unlimited choices.

[Reasoning]

@Stranger

@Reasoning

“You there! You have the scientific knowledge of how to build a warship. Go hire the necessary number of laborers and obtain the necessary materials.”

The planner does not know who has the knowledge to build a warship beyond his own knowledge of how to build a warship. If the planner does not know, he cannot pick out someone who does know.

A manager in a capitalist factory delegates a number of projects to those whom know more about them than he does. There is no reason as to why a socialist planner could not do the same.

[Esuric]

@Stranger

And what if one million people suggest one million different ways to build a warship? How does he tell apart those who really can build a warship and those who just want to swindle resources from him? How does he choose who he will allocate resources to? Because that is the fundamental problem of economic calculation, allocating scarce resources between unlimited choi

Absurd.

[Stranger]

@Esuric

@Stranger

And what if one million people suggest one million different ways to build a warship? How does he tell apart those who really can build a warship and those who just want to swindle resources from him? How does he choose who he will allocate resources to? Because that is the fundamental problem of economic calculation, allocating scarce resources between unlimited choi

Absurd.

Socialism is absurd, I concede.