Education and voluntarism

In order to get back on track, perhaps you could explain (or reiterate if you already have explained) why you suspect an ancap society would be worse for children overall compared to the current system. Obviously, the current system isn’t perfect when it comes to protecting children from abusive parents, but what is it that makes you think ancap would lead to a worse situation for children then there already is?

I think we can safely assume that the same number of parents will have the urge to abuse their children in either system which means the comparison is between which system causes a larger subset of abusive parents to either fight their abusive urges or efficiently removes children from such environments. It sounds like you think more children would end up abused in an ancap society than in the current system, would you mind expanding on what you envision happening in an ancap society (perhaps a few examples scenarios)?

Another thing to consider is whether you feel it is better to abuse an adult versus abusing a child. In the current system there is a lot of abuse lead by the state that is entirely uncalled for and would be eliminated or significantly decreased with the elimination of the state (offensive wars, police brutality, prison brutality, violent suppression of protests, and torture). Should we factor these things into the equation or should we keep it simple for now and speak only about child abuse? Also, how should we go about gauging situations where the state actually makes things worse, like putting runaways back into dysfunctional homes or putting foster children into dysfunctional homes?

Firstly, I wouldn’t say that I think an AnCap society would be this way, more that I do not know what an AnCap society would be like. It was the same kind of logic (personal ‘philosophy’, if you like) that drew me away from atheism (or rather positive atheism) and forced me into the realms of agnosticism (I do not feel that I can positively assert that a God does or does not exist)

However you asked me why I might suspect this would be the case (that AnCap would be worse). Well, I suspect this might be the case purely for the suspicion of how in certain (but not all, might I emphasise) case scenarios individuals would solve disputes in the free market without an authoritarian structure that has built its body of objective reasoning based upon hierarchical structures imposed ‘from the top down’ onto others.

In the following scenario, I would consider an individualist legal system to be preferable to a collectivist one:

(Individualist solution)

Me and a friend go to a club, there is a CCTV camera owned by the club. Me and my friend have a row about something, so we decide to go outside and solve the issue through discussion. My friend says something which annoys me; I snap and launch a physical assault against him. In scenario (a) my friend decides not to seek justice; he said something that was (by his own individual reasoning) unacceptable and hence my response was justified (again by his own reasoning). He does not pursue the case any further. In scenario (b), however, he decides that I went too far and he asks the club for CCTV evidence (they have the incident recorded) and takes the matter to court (private legal system or state owned legal system, it does not matter). I am fined £x for making the agression against his individual rights. The only other solution would be that my friend is unable to act himself (lets say he is mentally vulnerable or that he has not paid for legal insurance and cannot pursue a legal case) another individual (my friend’s friend, brother, uncle, aunty, etc.) acts on his behalf (presuming my friend has given his consent for this), taking me to court.

There is another possible case scenario and that is the possibility that I killed my friend and he was therefore unable to launch a prosecution (even if he had so desired). However, I assume that in this case, maybe the club owner (upon reviewing the CCTV footage) or someone who witnessed the attack would be able to launch a prosecution.

(Collectivist Solution)

The state finds out about the case through CCTV footage and makes the decision to prosecute me on my friend’s behalf regardless of whether or not my friend had forgiven me and decided not to pursue the case any further. For me, this stance is totally immoral; it is based on utilitarianism, the idea of ‘the greatest good for the greatest majority’. The individual’s (in this case, my friend that I assaulted in a row) rights are no longer important. He doesn’t have a right to justice; ‘society’ does. Not only is it immoral but it is also a highly inefficient method of dealing with justice; the state cannot handle every single dispute that happens. It is obviously much easier to let the relevant individuals in any given situation handle their own affairs (and take the circumstance to court if need be).

Well, out of both the above situations, I find the individualist solution preferable, purely because there is no ‘common good’ that will benefit all man kind (my friend might find it more personally beneficial not to have me in prison, assuming we are still on good terms et cetera). But there is a significant difference in the case of adult disputes and problem case scenarios involving children, namely my friend’s capability of making a rational choice; children do not have the capacity for rational decision making, as I explained earlier. The other differences are that I am not forcefully detaining my friend (he is free to launch a prosecution) - whereas parents have the ability to forcefully detain their child without anyone else’s knowledge - and my friend is not being psychologically intimidated from me - abusive parents have the ability to apply bullying tactics, scaring the child away from trying to change his own circumstances (hence, when someone asks the child if he is happy with his family’s parenting he might say ‘yes’ but really, he thinks ‘no’). I would take the same stance that I do in the case of child abuse and defend state intervention in the case of a man that was mentally vulnerable (e.g. if the man had severe down syndrome).

The alternative, I suppose, would be the reliance on third bodies to launch prosecutions on the behalf of those without sufficient means to do so themselves (whether for financial - cannot afford legal case, physical or mental purposes).

Now, there is one point I have not addressed so far and that is “how can we know whether an incapacitated body is coercively being kept from attempting to launch a prosecution on his own behalf”? Under statism, the state has power to inspect (big brother - CCTV, state funded child cruelty agencies and so forth). In the free market, individual rights are respected and it is illegitmate for a third person to try and inspect the household of any family. This obviously has its pluses but it also has its minuses then, because it means that there will be an increased number of cases which are not known about. Remember, I’m not arguing that the state can ‘know’ about all cases of the physical detainment of an incapacitated body but legally, it has the legitimate authority to inspect such cases (the market does not). Now, Clayton made a good point and that was that members of the extended family would have the power to intervene under anarcho-capitalism. The only objection I would have to this is, how can you ensure that they would have the power to do so (intervene) in the market?

This is one of my main grips with private legal systems and why I am still undecided about anarcho-capitalism. I had these objections in my head all along but I was finding it difficult to express them in this kind of fine detail.

There is one thing that we agree on, however, and that is that child abuse would be present in both anarchist and statist societies. It is just my personal belief that there are a (severely limited) number of cases in which state intervention is preferable to that of free market solutions. I believe that it was Adam Smith’s belief that state intervention in the market was justified provided that the net benefits outweigh the net costs (or overall burden) on ‘society’ - yeah, yeah, I know, individualism blah blah blah. This is my position as well; I think that state intervention is justified in certain circumstances where the negative effects are not worse than they would be had state intervention not happened. How we know when state intervention is preferable is another discussion.

No. I think that abuse is unjustified to the extent that it incurrs negative utility (which cannot be measured as such [ranking of values] and can only be subjectively judged by the individual experiencing the pain).

This is true (the government has many faults) but the question is whether there would be more or less violence without the state. I believe that if there would be more violence, then the existence of the state is justified even if taxation constitutes theft but I know that others would disagree. Also, another point is, does the state need to be improved or abolished to achieve ‘the most desirable outcome’ (which is subjective, I know but I can’t think of another way to phrase this other than returning to my theory of “risk analysis”).

It has been brought to my attention that the ire you exhibit here, Herodotus, could have been caused by a perception that by choosing something totally ridiculous and unrelated to the conversation at hand was meant to mock you in some way. I’d like to go ahead and point out that this is not an attempt to ridicule. It is an attempt to “stump bias.” Right now, you define specific words very differently than I do, and very differently from the Voluntaryist. It is not appropriate for me to continue to use those words with the definitions I employ incommunication with you. Rather than get hung up on the words, I offer new labels for the concepts I want to communicate, labels which you probably don’t already have competing definitions for. I could just as easily do the following:

  1. A = Use of physical force against the body or property of another
  2. B = The threat of A in an attempt to ensure compliance
  3. C = The initiation of A or B (see above)
  4. D = The act of employing A or B (or any other means) in order to end an act of C

This way, I can communicate the position of the voluntaryist (as I perceive it, again, looking for an actual voluntaryist to correct me if I’m wrong here) without invoking words you already define differently than I/we do.

The position would be as follows:

Neither A nor B are necessarily C or D, however they must be one of those two options. There is no third option. There is no “neutral A” or “neutral B.” Voluntaryists are anti-C(A or B), but they are pro-D(A or B or Neither).

Hopefully, if you are truly not concerned about words, you will have no problem understanding and accepting the concepts and the neutral/unbiased labels I have provided.

No. You don’t have to conform to anyone’s definitions in order to “attain” truth. But you do have to at least understand the concepts/definitions/labels used by others in order to “attain” understanding. You could certainly disagree with everything a voluntaryist advocates, but unless you understand what they are advocating, there’s no way you can know whether or not you actually do disagree with them.

I maintain that you have no disproven that you misunderstand what Voluntaryists advocate. I only seek to bring understanding into this discussion. I’m really not at all invested in whether or not you agree.

I am hoping that this post will succeed in demonstrating to you that this isn’t a matter of defining words. It’s a matter of invoking/employing concepts in order to achieve understanding. We can discuss whether or not specific actions are or are not compatible with the philosophy we’re talking about once we are sure we are, in fact, talking about the same philosophy.

This isn’t a church. I haven’t ever told you that your definitions are “incorrect.” I have only ever suggested that they are not the same definitions employed by voluntaryists. In fact, I have gone out of my way to use different words (alice, betty, carol, denise) so as to not demand that you use my/our definitions for the words you already use. This is exactly the opposite of what you’ve accused me of in this thread. I hope you understand that.

@Autolykos

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think we can stick with the sense of voluntarism that I have been advocating and for two reasons: the etymology leans, I think, very heavily in its favor, and two, because if one says that everybody should be allowed to live according to their free will, then that would also prevent anybody from interfering in the will of another.

After reading some of your posts and Clayton’s, as well, it occurred to me, however, that maybe we should speak of “consent”, although I am terrified of the prospect of introducing another term susceptible to debate. In fact, I can already imagine you pointing out, in the case of the pedophile example I brought up before, for instance, that the child would be consenting to those acts. And, I would agree that the child had consented. But, the quality of that consent (as I hold, that it was coerced) seems so overwhelming a factor that that consent is meaningless. I myself feel that that is a somewhat odd position to take, so I will agree to bin it for the moment and try to get to the underyling concept, as you suggest.

My position is that, as a matter of real life, every-day practicality, the child’s consent is generally of secondary importance. I am sure that there are people here who are conscious of the importance to their ideology of maintaining the inviolable sanctity of consent, but as much as I myself treasure that value, I cannot adhere to it in a puritanical kind of way, that is, in all times and places and in all circumstances. And, with respect to children, it seems that, as a matter of course, it must be violated as a matter of course. As a teacher, unlike a parent, I have a (thankfully) limited degree of responsibilities and authority, but even in the class, it is inevitable that I focus on “fairness” rather than “justice”, if I can force those two concepts apart. In any case, since consent, in the matter of raising children, seems to be something that must be relegated to an inferior position–and I agree that along the way to who, where, what, when, why, how, etc lies an impenetrable thicket of error–I cannot help but think that the voluntarist position, that consent trumps all (?), is an impossible position to hold.

I have already been taken aback by the reaction my use of the word “coercion” as elicited, so I will brace myself for the onslaught, but I wonder if there is not something here that might serve as common ground to, if nothing else, agree to disagree on?

If we use your “sense” (better: definition) of voluntarism, then no one in this thread who’s been arguing against you is a voluntarist. But again, “voluntarist” and “voluntarism” are just words - the underlying concepts don’t change because the words change. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

On the other hand, and with all due respect, I think you’ve been arguing against a straw man with regards to voluntarism. I say that because, as I noted above, what you’re defining “voluntarism” as is different from what self-described voluntarists define it as. If you’re trying to prove to self-described voluntarists the untenability of their position, I think it’s useful to put that (alleged) proof in terms that they can understand.

Of course I would point that out. :stuck_out_tongue: But tell me, how does one measure “quality of consent”? And again, I must make the distinction between physical and non-physical coercion (using your definition of “coercion”). It’s the former - physical coercion - that I find morally wrong.

With all due respect, I think your position is unsupported. As far as I’m concerned, you need to demonstrate why/how the child’s consent is generally of secondary importance.

How do you (personally) distinguish between “fairness” and “justice”? I suspect you distinguish them differently from how I do. Regardless, I fail to see how this directly relates to your main position - unless you’re implicitly saying that, because you’ll inevitably focus on “fairness” instead of “justice”, you’ll end up going against the child’s consent and thus cannot hold to the voluntarist position. By the way, what makes you believe that you’ll inevitably focus on “fairness” instead of “justice”? That is, can you support that claim?

In the end, your argument here is simply “voluntarism is an impossible position to hold w.r.t. children (and thus in absolute terms) because the consent of a child is of secondary importance”. I find this argument to be unsatisfying because your reasoning suggests a more fundamental basis - that is, an explanation of what makes a child’s consent only secondarily important. Perhaps you’re simply assuming that it is; if so, I suggest you state that explicitly, at which point I’ll simply reject the assumption and we’ll be done. :slight_smile:

It’s not simply a matter of agreeing to disagree. Your position, as I understand it, means it’s okay for you to do things to me without my consent. Please understand that, because I disagree with that position, I will feel obligated to defend myself against you if you try to carry it out with me.

Paranoia is so unbecoming.

This site, and this community, and the videos, texts, books, articles and speeches here ARE THE CRADLE OF VOLUNTARIST THOUGHT. People come here, “get” voluntarism, and never have to ever go to Wikipedia for anything.

I think you have correctly identified the issue. You’re arguing without having the understanding in place. I get it. I have done it. It’s a way to learn, but you have to really focus to adapt your positions as your understanding deepens.

The point I am making with this, is that no ancap who understands ancap (lots of poseurs) would say that this system can remove hunger, or pain, theft, violence or disrespect. It’s simply not possible to have human freedom, without the opportunity for people to do things we consider antisocial. There is ALWAYS a risk. There is no guaranteed safe path.

And this is what I have been pushing you and Herotodus towards. That you hold the belief that society is best organized by violence.

I’m not judging it, but lets call it what it is.

We know what a mixed economy looks like, of a particular type at a particular moment in time. We also know this mixed economy is headed for crisis level bankruptcy and social upheaval. But that said, Austrians generally use deduction, not empiricism. I’m asking you to employ logic, and identify the contradictions from any models you consider, and see them for what they are at their root. And then you will have to again decide, is this what I thought it was?

Don’t be sorry. I don’t have expectations. Most people never learn to employ reason or logic. You’re taking that first step. Leap! You can fly.

That’s a question for you to answer. I don’t want to overthrow the state. I want to live in peace with my fellow men, and I refuse to accept an institution which claims it has the right to commit violence against me if I exercise peaceful free will.

Think about this argument. You could use it to prevent freeing the slaves or giving women the vote. It’s a bunker mentality. Immobilized. Anti-human because it resists evolution. Yes, we’re radicals. Radicals for peace and prosperity. That’s what you’re scared of. Now you have to ask yourself why.

@Clayton

I just spent a good hour crafting an excellent reply to your post, since you addressed what I believe to be the difficulty at the heart of the voluntarist position (although from a slightly different angle, I think), and my post has vanished into the ether of the worldwide web. I am too heart-broken to try to conjure it back into existence, but I just wanted to convey my respect for the consistency and honesty of your position (if it is not condescending to say so).

@Autolykos

You are right. I am arguing that nobody can be a voluntarist, except in the abstract. That’s why I could no longer call myself a voluntarist. I could not see how it was possible to practice what I preached.

As for agreeing to disagree, all I meant by that was that we could get beyond the debate about definitions to some extent and come to the point where, if we could not convince one another, we would at least knew where everybody stood.

As for the distinction between “fairness” and “justice”, I cannot claim a hard and fast difference. I made it up on the fly, as a way of trying to differentiate between an order in which justice is approximated and in which it is an absolute value. I wonder, as an aside, how many participants in this thread are parents or teachers and also how many people have, or come from, big nuclear families. As a teacher, with multiple competing interests and desires, it is impossible to be “just”. If somebody is bothering someone else, he/she is not to take the matter into their own hands, but to report it to me, and I will attempt to deal with it in a relatively fair but cursory manner with consideration of the opinions or, more importantly, the feelings of the parties involved and the class as a whole. I judge that the children are generally unable to come to a fair or just conclusion on their own. Moreover, I judge that spending too much time on the matter will cause disorder in the class and distract everyone from the task at hand. It would also set a precedent and communicate an order of priorities where every petty issue (he kicked my desk, no i didn’t, yes you did, i was moving my chair because your jacket always touches my desk, yesterday…, and then a third and fourth party jump in, too) can be brought up for litigation, and after failing to satisfy each person’s sense of justice, he/she then proceeds to display their righteous indignation by making a scene or, God forbid, “defending themselves”.

For someone like me (an ex-voluntarist), I live in a world where all ideological absolutes appear dubious at best. It is an awful life, being conscious of the fact that it is impossible to be just or fair. A person in front of me is about to jump off a bridge and commit suicide, and I can “save his life” or “let him die”. I will, all things being equal, “save him” although it is possible that he is doing the “right” thing. No religion or ideology, either statist or anarchist, atheist or theistic, is going to feed me the Right Answer, and how would I know it if I got it? And yet, here I am in the world, with the person about to jump.

The thing that had attracted me to voluntarism originally and still does to some extent was the concern that that kind of anarchist had about trying to remove the things within him/herself that perpetuated the unceasing cycle of violation of consent. Perhaps you are right and I misunderstood voluntarism, but my sense is that this has been hijacked by “ancaps”, people who are more interested in eradicating the state (without being able to define it) in deference to economic forces, rather than creating the conditions under which people will not be forced into anything by anybody, whether the state or one’s neighbor. I found that when I tried to practice voluntarism, I could not escape the problem of coercion, especially in relation to children. If I were a parent, I would be in an even bigger bind. There is no way I could be a parent and not coerce them (by physical force) into doing things they did not want to do.

Under the right conditions, I may attempt to do things to you without your consent. But, I can’t say I wasn’t warned!

God I hate it when that happens. A piece of advice… occasionally press the following key sequence while composing replies “Ctl+A, Ctl+C”… that selects all text and copies it to the clipboard. If your browser crashes or the website chokes when you submit your post, you may have some or all of it still in the clipboard where you can paste it into Notepad or another instance of the website. It’s saved my bacon a couple times.

Clayton -

I don’t think anyone could afford the legal risk of trying to conjure up children’s memories. In our current system, there is de facto immunity because anything done on the State’s behalf will have protection from the DA’s office which is funded from the effectively unlimited public treasury. In a free society, these “child psychologists” would be liable for their actions and I speculate that after the first two or three lawsuits there would be no “child psychology” industry.

Clayton -

Again, it depends on the definition of “voluntarist” being used. By your definition, I would agree - no one can be a voluntarist. But by my definition, people certainly can be voluntarists. Do you see the difference? There is no particular meaning that the word “voluntarist” must have. Furthermore, the meaning you’ve attributed to “voluntarist”, once again, is not the meaning which other self-described “voluntarists” have attributed to it.

Well that’s fair enough IMO.

Are you saying that you can’t say just what your definitions are for “fairness” and “justice”?

How is impossible to be “just” as a teacher with multiple competing interests and desires? Of course, there’s no objectively correct standard of “justice” to apply, so one must look within (as it were).

Are you referring to the rules and regulations where you teach? I see no reason why someone must not or literally cannot take the matter into his own hands, but must report it to you, or why you must attempt to deal with it in “a relatively fair but cursory manner [etc.]”. Can you please support and/or clarify this?

What has made you arrive at that judgement?

Perhaps that should give you pause about the whole nature of modern “child education”. Objectively speaking, of course, there’s no such thing as “too much” or “too little” time spent on one thing or another. Furthermore, eliminating disorder and/or distraction in the classroom isn’t objectively more or less important than providing “justice” (according to one’s own standard thereof).

The thing is, there is no Right Answer. “Right” and “wrong” are subjective. But that in no way means that one should or must give up any/all “ideological absolutes”.

I definitely think that you’ve misunderstood what self-described voluntarists mean by “voluntarism”. None of them, to my knowledge, would equate it with “pacifism”, which is what you seem to (still) be doing.

What’s unfortunate about being a parent today is that, if you don’t physically coerce your children, you’ll likely be punished by the state. Since there are laws mandating compulsory education and prohibiting child labor, along with the contemporary concept of “child abuse”, all of which are backed up with significant means of violence, it seems next to impossible for a parent to kick his child(ren) out of his house without suffering highly adverse consequences. The only way around this may be to arrange for the intransigent child to live with someone else, but I’m not sure how viable that is in practice. So basically today’s socio-political environment practically mandates physically coercive parenting. It’s a mad, mad world indeed IMHO.

You can say that again! :stuck_out_tongue:

Ironically this happened to me as well just a minute ago :frowning:

Thing is you have to remember to highlight and copy: I do do this sometimes but often forget :frowning:

Actually, I did not object so much to your use of the names Alice, etc., until I saw what you had written beneath it. You had asked me if I agreed with your definitions of the four words in a prior post, and when I explained that I could only agree to one, you seemed to find this offensive. So, I took your use of the names to be some sort of put-down. I suppose I was mistaken.

In any case, if I were to go by your definition of voluntarism, I still do not see how it is practicable. As a teacher, I have used physical force to remove a student from a classroom, and I believe that on those rare occasions, it was necessary to assert my authority, without which I could not do my job. In those instances, it was a child who appeared to be deliberately and/or continuously disrupting the class who refused to respond to more routine incentives and punishments and then refused to leave when ordered to. Most teachers who have students removed usually leave it to administrative staff, but I insist on doing my own dirty work, both because I do not want to make it easy on myself, and because it is more effective in the long-term. Moreover, I almost never “rat” on a kid to either the administration or his parents, because of the prevalence of corporal punishment in this society. The only time I do so is when I believe it is simply impossible and counterproductive to have the student attend anymore.

More importantly, I do not see how a parent or even, in some instances, an innocent bystander can exclude the use of physical force (A). Clayton, I believe, brought up the example of the kid who decides to wander into the street. (Just to be clear, I would remove this child anytime he wandered into the street without my permission, even if there were no traffic). Or, as I mentioned in another post, using force to prevent someone from committing suicide. I can even contemplate a preemptive attack of someone without them having threatened anyone or having hard evidence of an attack, if I thought the probability of attack and serious damage were high enough to warrant it.

So, by using “physical force” rather than my definition of coercion, I think you have lowered the bar below where I believe it stands (just for the record), but even then I don’t believe that it solves the problem of voluntarism that I contend exists.

Last post was @Ladyphoenix!

+1 to Autolykos for being more patient than I was in trying to figure out why you would have reacted the way you did. :slight_smile: It was, in fact, he who suggested that my reaction to your previous post to me was probably too abrupt.

I can only answer for myself here… And I’m certainly not the be-all and end-all of NAP adherers, so please don’t apply my reasoning to anyone else in this thread. I think everyone else should answer for themselves how they view/interpret the situations below if they do so differently than I do.

As Autolykos mentioned, there are those of us here would view removing by A a disruptive child from a classroom as D. It is the disruptive child who is committing an act of C. This would be much easier to explain with regard to a private school where ownership (property rights) and agents of owners are much easier to determine. Public schools, by their very nature, confuse the issue of ownership in my humble opinion, and as such, they aren’t as clear-cut as we’d like them to be. Either way, everyone who agrees to send their child to school does so with the express understanding that they do so in order receive an education. The parents then have presumably exchanged title of property in their money for title of property in their child’s education. The disruptive child is therefore infringing upon the property rights of the school who is obligated to provide the education by interfering with their ability to do so and the children/parents who have paid to receive it.

You putting an end to such an infringement of property rights on behalf of the school and the other students in the class would then be considered an act of A as a function of D, and therefore would not be considered contrary to the NAP.

This comes back to the difference between A as a function of C and A as a function of D. NAP adherers are not opposed to A as a function of D. Therefore they do not exclude A, unqualified, only when it is a function of C.

As would I. I would do the same for an adult about to be hit by a car in the street or about to step into a street with on-coming traffic. And I wouldn’t consider this an act which is inherently C.

I think I can say with some degree of certainty that men who exist do so because they wish to exist. A man who does not wish to exist would end his life, therefore the vast majority of people I will encounter “want to live.” With this in mind, I am pretty sure saving someone from certain extinction would be something he would consent to if he were able to consent (i.e. if he were more aware of the situation or if he were able to communicate the desire to be saved). There may be a very rare exception… but I would consider it so rare as to not prevent me from engaging in the saving of lives if I were able.

The second side to this is that I would accept, completely, that should the person I save truly want to die, that I am in the wrong, ethically, for preventing him from achieving that end, and as such, I would gladly submit to restitution as my act would indeed be C, rather than D…

Specifically in the situation “wandering out into traffic,” I would consider it just as much defensive of the property of the drivers on the roads and their safety to remove a child/adult from their path(s). I think I could make a pretty compelling case there. :slight_smile:

I know there is some contention about this point in particular, and I will let those who disagree address them individually.

I wouldn’t use force to prevent someone from committing suicide. I would consider such an act to be a violation of the property right a man has in his own body, and thus it would qualify as A as a function of C.

I want you to give me a couple of examples here. I could go either way depending upon the situation. I’d be happy to go over them with you.

Well, I can’t tell you where the bar should stand in your opinion, but hopefully my answers here help show how it’s possible to apply the NAP in a workable way in realistic situations.

More important are the legal ramifications of the difference between minor and adult. If your child is wandering around aimlessly in the middle of a busy street, you have every right and duty under the law to physically remove him or her. Not only is it not unjustifiable coercion to forcibly remove your child, to fail to do so is negligence and the other parent or someone in the family should have every legal right to take action against you for failing to do your natural duty as a parent should some harm come to the child as a result.

But if I’m wandering around aimlessly in the middle of a busy street and you forcibly remove me “for my own good” you are treading on thin ice. Perhaps I was depressed about a recent break-up or whatever and didn’t care at the moment whether I lived or died but I wasn’t inviting some by-stander to tackle me, either. So, you’re liable for assault even if you had good intentions, and if some harm results - a fractured arm or something like that, you’re likely going to be paying at least doctor bills of the injured party…

Thankfully, our legal system isn’t too far off the mark in these particular scenarios and I think the case law on these types of situations is probably a great place to study why liability for the very same action against a minor versus an adult should be handled so differently.

Clayton -

@Autolykos

Warning: weird and pointless “What about the children” rant! But, I suspect there might be something in my experience that may be in the way here, so I’m going to just put it out there. Sorry in advance!

I’m not sure if I mentioned it or not before, but perhaps it is necessary to mention that I am an ESL teacher (primarily in private language schools). I have to teach children often as young as five or six, some of whom have had no demonstrable exposure to English. It is hard for me to describe what I regard as the necessities of teaching such a class, particularly in the culture I am operating in.

I cannot stand in front of a class and lecture in English. Using their native tongue, except in select instances and with the conceit that a taboo within the confines of the classroom has been violated for which I permit a student to literally slap me on the wrist (and I am aware that this may be sending a subconscious message of violence, although it is not my intent, and which, from the reaction I perceive, works as a good ice-breaker, since many children, especially rural children, regard foreigners as physically intimidating), is also an unworkable option. My overriding interest is in creating a ‘positive momentum’ in the class at virtually all costs, and it is not something that can be put off. You have about a month to set the tone, after which it becomes increasingly difficult to alter conditions. I pull out all the stops. I fill the class with my English and my antics, and work as fast as I can to get them to do the same, without leaping out of their chairs and distracting themselves or each other.

I have to override their natural instincts to not only communicate, but to think, in their native language. I must cajole the shy, joke around with the gloomy, intimidate the bullies, encourage (but also threaten) the unconfident, check the arrogant, calm the over-exubirant, all from the word “go” until I can form a cohesive unit out of the class. If I do not form a unit, a group of individuals who believe and feel that they have a demonstrable stake in the unit and that the unit has a demonstrable stake in them as individuals, the class will disintegrate. I see it happen all the time. A kid or eight gets left behind, allegedly because they are lazy or stupid and nowadays in need of medication (which really infuriates me), and become disruptive because they are bored, lost, and uninspired.

I am simultaneously getting them to “act up” and speak up and to get them to regulate themselves for the good of the group. In language education, I need to get them talking, writing, etc, not simply listening and passively regurgitating. In the culture I work within, kids are primarily controlled through shame and rote (and also corporal punishment although not as much as before), and I have to encourage them to break out of their habituated responses (submission or rebellion) by all sorts of means. What often happens is that when the kids realize that I’m not there to “master” them, they believe I must be all excited because it is play time. And, so, I often have to lurch between joking, etc, and stamping my authority, marking my territory, call it what you will–and I make a show of my temper as much as I do the other antics–until the unit becomes cohesive and that kind of thing becomes unnecessary.

Every day, I try to communicate by everything I say and do, that we are in that room for no other purpose other than for everybody to succeed together, and nobody, neither any individual student, the administration, the parents, nor I, is permitted to interfere with that purpose. (I have been fired for refusing to abide by an altered school curriculum, because I believed it would break the implicit social contract I had established with the students, namely that I would never ask of them anything I thought they were incapable of, in this case, using material designed for American students; but, I felt that that the implicit contract between the students and me trumped the physical contract between my employer and me). In that process, I have ordered kids to do things they do not want to do, that they are terrified of doing, that they refuse to do, sometimes to the point where I believe that the connection between myself and even an outstanding student is at risk of being ruptured, simply because I perceive that there is some character flaw in danger of limiting their development. I have threatened to order an academically excellent student for refusing to follow a command of mine, when I believed that I had come across what I regarded as a character flaw that would inhibit their future language development. On the other hand, I can’t tell you how many times some of the most allegedly incorrigible students turn out to be the most impressive both scholastically and personally after a few months.

The technique, in principle, is almost the same used by armies to train soldiers. There is a simultaneous dissolution of both their original confidence and their lack of confidence (their identity, which in my case, is bound up with the student’s language, as well) and the creation of a new kind of confidence bound up with the unit to some degree. And, it involves forcing people to do things they are unwilling to do and are absolutely convinced they are incapable of. I am not an expert on “brainwashing”, but I think many of those elements are there. At the same time, I firmly believe (although not without some doubts) that what I am doing is, on balance, good for the students.

From my perspective as a teacher, the critical question is the will of the students and the need for me to actively mold it. Part of the thing that makes me so resistant to some of the arguments made here, I think, is that the description of the relationship between the teacher and student often seems so remote from the reality; clinical, sterile. Almost every day, I feel as if I’m on a razor’s edge: Am I pushing this student too hard? Have I misjudged his/her strengths and weaknesses? Am I being manipulative because this is the best way or only way or because I am too lazy to come up with a better way? Did I do that because I am in a foul mood today? I cannot view it in terms of contract theory or ideology or something like that, only the interests of the student and the class as a whole, which I feel in my gut and cannot be put into a clear formula, except to say that somehow the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, a whole that is not formed voluntarily in the sense of conscious consent.

Sorry if I’ve taken this into left field.

@Ladyphoenix

No worries. Internet forums are raucous places, a fact I am still not used to.

Regarding preemptive attack. I have to say that this is a hard one for me to conjure up, because the plausability of it is rooted in my experience living and travelling in Asia. In a state, for example, where gov’t power is exercised almost completely arbitrarily. Without due process of any kind and a persistent state of fear, rumor, and suspicion. If I knew the reputation of my neighbor Q, that he had an allegedly insatiable and sadistic appetite for young women, that I felt that that reputation was deserved on the basis of circumstantial evidence, and one day, I saw a look on his face when he saw my daughter that gave me the sense that she was in immediate danger. I am generally well regarded in the community, and I try to pull some strings in the gov’t to have Q watched. Although he is allegedly the son of a general, I believe (because you have to trust somebody, as a matter of faith and sanity) that I have dealt with somebody who I can rely on not to get me into any trouble. Two days later, I get an anonymous letter describing some pretty sick things that will be done to my family, especially the women. I decide that I need to find out for myself what’s going on one night, so I go to spy on Q. I look in his window. He is drunk, brandishing tribal swords, shirtless, putting on women’s make-up, and listening to Lady Gaga cranked up. I feel as if I can hear a woman screaming but really can’t be sure. It is past curfew, and I decide I cannot risk reporting him or confronting him. The next day, he is at the watermelon stand, says hello to me, offers to buy me a slice; I grab the cleaver from the watermelon man and cut the SOB Q down.

As for education, I have trouble regarding children as property. Did I understand you correctly? If so, when do they cease becoming property? And, is that authority limited at all?

This thread has inspired me to write this post: How To Rescue a Child (without the State).

I hope it will clarify some misunderstandings demonstrated in this thread.