Feminist Misrepresentation in Libertarianism

[Malachi]

How do you secure yourself against a supposed friend or relative sexually encroaching on you? Not everyone has the mental fortitude to resist this right at the scene, and it doesn’t help that this often happens to minors.

mental preparation, and familiarity with weapons, including psychological weapons and improvised weapons. perhaps the reason they are being taken advantage of is precisely the lack of mental fortitude you mention. Of course the actual mental state of the potential victim is of little concern to your anti-rape crusader. In actual fact, victims are often victimized because they are vulnerable.

I never wanted to be one of those people, but here goes: check your privilege.

well now one of us is the kind of person he never wanted to be. Have fun looking in the mirror.

Seriously. Do you have any idea about the subtle inquisition someone is put through when they present themselves as a rape victim without obvious physical damages to show for it? When the rape kit’s useless because the victim was traumatized for too long to do anything, the raised eyebrows and questioning looks can be absolutely painful.

let me guess, this is my fault, because I wasnt offended enough by other people’s sexist behavior. Its not the fault of the people who pretend that responsibility for rape prevention belongs to the male sex, collectively, and so didnt try to teach that someone about things they might want to do, like report the crime immediately, or carry a weapon, or fight the bastard hoping he will go away or at least leave some evidence of force. Those are all irrelevancies to be brushed away and ignored. Why? Because we are chivalrous. Women shouldnt have to worry about rape, so women actually shouldnt worry about rape! The rapists are men, so men need to change!

What, it’s the woman who needs advice? Not the asshole rapist husband?

are you seriously suggesting that a woman who is married to a rapist doesnt need any advice or counseling? Please answer.

You’re making the feminists’ case without realizing it.

since I happen to be a feminist, I happen to be fully aware whose case I am making. In case you didnt notice, I am arguing for the empowerment of women while you seem to believe that they are inherently powerless over even the most critical aspects of their lives.

[gotlucky]

Malachi, maybe we’ll have better luck with these people if we resort to pretty pictures. Okay, guys, can you tell the difference between the following two pictures?

and

Now, yes, anyone who breaks into and steals from a store is culpable. The store owner who is the victim of a burglary is not culpable. However, depending upon the location and culture of the community, sometimes it’s more prudent to have a storefront that is like one of the above pictures. I’m going to leave it to the reader to figure out which one.

Follow up question: Do you have a lock on your door? Why or why not?

[Malachi]

And one more thing:

Do you have any idea about the subtle inquisition someone is put through when they present themselves as a rape victim without obvious physical damages to show for it? When the rape kit’s useless because the victim was traumatized for too long to do anything, the raised eyebrows and questioning looks can be absolutely painful.

Dont forget about the responsibility of the leo’s to get accurate information. Or is rape a special kind of crime where the accused have no rights?

[Sphairon]

@Malachi

In actual fact, victims are often victimized because they are vulnerable.

And poor people don’t get ahead because they just can’t keep their money together.

I mean, really, is it too much to ask of everyone to have a Marine-style mindset up at all times, particularly around people they are supposed to be able to trust? Better to train people to be paranoid wrecks than to try to do something about sexual objectification, right?

@Malachi

let me guess, this is my fault, because I wasnt offended enough by other people’s sexist behavior.

Yes, waving away the effects of centuries of female oppression and the rape culture that resulted certainly contributes. And you’re doing a fantastic job at it.

@Malachi

are you seriously suggesting that a woman who is married to a rapist doesnt need any advice or counseling?

She probably needs it after the fact. But the person who would be in greater need of educational attention is definitely the husband.

Your reaction tells me that you still can’t let go of the stereotyptical image of the dark-alley-sitting creepy rapist. Rape isn’t just physically forcing sex on someone. Rape occurs in a lot of subtle ways.

Your implication is that the hypothetical woman in question needs “advice” to avoid dating “bad types” who will rape her in the future. If only she hadn’t gone for the bad boy, this wouldn’t have happened, right? Because morally superior middle class guys such as yourself don’t rape, right? Since rape only occurs in “those neighborhoods” in conjunction with “those people”?

@Malachi

since I happen to be a feminist

You happen to be a guy who, if appearances are any indication, has successfully avoided reading up on anything modern feminist theory has produced and who thinks patriarchy and its concomitant sexist view of women and sexuality will go away if we teach them to carry guns.

[Malachi]

And poor people don’t get ahead because they just can’t keep their money together.

no its because capitalists arent offended enough by poverty. They should think about how much they hate it more often and more intensely, then we wouldnt have poor people, right?

I mean, really, is it too much to ask of everyone to have a Marine-style mindset up at all times, particularly around people they are supposed to be able to trust?

I dont know dude, is a little acquaintaince rape every now-and-again too much to ask someone to put up with? I mean, its got to be less traumatic than carrying a knife everywhere you go, right?

and there you go again, implying that women “should be able to trust” rapists, if only men werent such pigs.

Better to train people to be paranoid wrecks than to try to do something about sexual objectification, right?

its better to do something about the possibility of rape than try to change a rapist’s mind about how he likes his pussy. Also quit trying to say that people who take responsibility for their persec are “paranoid.” Paranoia is a lot more likely to result from getting raped by an acquaintance you trust than taking measures to protect yourself from acquaintance rape.

Yes, waving away the effects of centuries of female oppression and the rape culture that resulted certainly contributes. And you’re doing a fantastic job at it.

how, exactly, am I doing that?

She probably needs it after the fact.

so marrying a rapist was a good decision, in your opinion. Awesome judgment call, just awesome. “No dude, hazard lights are for after the accident. Just stop in the middle of the street on a foggy day and wait to get hit. Then, turn on your hazard lights.”

But the person who would be in greater need of educational attention is definitely the husband.

I didnt realize that you thought that this was some kind of dichotomy. Well heres something for you, a pistol in the face and divorce papers served in the next few days might be a little more educational than the sound of a woman crying after she has been violated, dont you think?

Your reaction tells me that you still can’t let go of the stereotyptical image of the dark-alley-sitting creepy rapist. Rape isn’t just physically forcing sex on someone. Rape occurs in a lot of subtle ways.

Here we go, lol. Tell me about how a woman can be raped subtly. Tell me about how women are too emotionally stunted to identify warning signs. Tell me about how women are too stupid to identify a rapist that isnt a creep in a dark ally. I’m dying to hear about how a woman who is married to a rapist didnt need advice beforehand because he was a subtle rapist who could only be reformed through the power of posters and other men giving a fuck. Because rapists usually tend to care about other people’s wants.

Your implication is that the hypothetical woman in question needs “advice” to avoid dating “bad types” who will rape her in the future.

a more faithful reading of my post would suggest that I think this hypothetical woman needs advice on identifying men who might be prone to acquaintaince rape. But thats so obviously true it would be hard to formulate a snarky response, so you had to use scare quotes and pretend I was talking about “bad boys” when I actually mean what I said, rapists.

If only she hadn’t gone for the bad boy, this wouldn’t have happened, right? Because morally superior middle class guys such as yourself don’t rape, right? Since rape only occurs in “those neighborhood” in conjunction with “those people”?

right now I want you to realize that your arguments are so weak you have resorted to inventing strawmen to knock down. Literally nothing in my posts would suggest any of that.

You happen to be a guy who, if appearances are any indication, has successfully avoided reading up on anything modern feminist theory has produced and who thinks patriarchy and its concomitant sexist view of women and sexuality will go away if we teach them to carry guns.

Judging by appearances on the internet. In a thread where your argument seems to consist of "rapists cant be identified by appearance they can only be brainwashed by inane ramblings about patriarchy. This discussion is sickening. The worst part is that you seem to want to pretend that guns will be ineffective…at changing rape culture…when the point is that a woman who is aware and armed is better able to prevent her own rape, and that empowered women have their own effect on culture. youre the worst kind of chauvinist, you want women to rely on the nobility of men rather than be empowered with regard to their own security.

[ClaytonB]

“The sooner you people realize that a hoodlum jumping from the bushes and raping the careless maiden isn’t the problem with rape culture, the better we will all be off.”

Please cite where I said or even implied this.

“By clinging to this comforting stereotype, you’re purposefully ignoring that most cases of rape occur in supposedly safe spaces:”

As I pointed out already - if you got raped there, it wasn’t safe, now, was it?

“Rape often occurs in one’s home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.”

And roses grow on bushes and the sky is blue. Please wake me up when you have something to add to the conversation.

“By perpetuating this stereotype, which also happens to take hold of LEOs and the judicial system,”

Yes, because I’m a big defender of LEO’s and the judicial system…

“you’re creating an environment in which a tragic amount of rape victims feel uncomfortable speaking out because people have a completely warped imagination of rape.”

But “speaking out” is not the solution to rape, either. A rape victim speaking out was still raped…

“You sure you were raped by your boyfriend? You sure it wasn’t consensual?” Since everyone knows rapes are committed by lowlife criminals in back alleys, right?

Well, domestic rape is a highly politicized area of law and is completely FUBAR’d. The judges who want to go the “old-fashioned” route make the insane claim that rape is impossible in the domestic situation. But that’s mostly in the deep-south territory where you see that kind of thing. Most judges nowadays are on the feminist bandwagon where “He said, she said” means “she said, therefore, he did” - an obviously problematic legal theory. Let me pose to you a simple legal question to illustrate why. Let’s say I’m on the subway and I pat a woman on the butt. Is that sexual assault? Of course it is. Now, let’s say my girlfriend just found out I had been cheating on her and, naturally, the relationship is over for her. We haven’t talked yet and, before she noticed I was home, I had come up from behind and patted her on the butt. Is this, or is it not sexual assault? This is a yes or no situation, either it is, or it isn’t sexual assault.

If you say yes (which I can’t imagine how you can say “no” if you are sympathetic to feminist legal theories), then what if she just “wasn’t in the mood to be patted on the butt”? Is it sexual assault only if she informs me prior? Or is no notice required? If there is notice required, then doesn’t this presumption apply to sex, as well? And what if she had seemed merely coy to her partner. “No, I’m not in the mood” can often be changed to hot, steamy sex after a bit of foreplay. Are we to understand that the feminists would have it that women are no longer to be wooed when they are merely being coy? But let us suppose that boyfriends/husbands are allowed to woo their wife/girlfriend when she says no because she is being coy. If she later regrets having given in to sex after being coy, then by the “no means no” standard, he has raped her, no? Yet from his point-of-view, he has done nothing different than he has done every other time they have made out when she was being coy and she ended up getting into the mood.

Your gold watch example also displays a blatant ignorance of the heated debate around sexual consent that has been going on for some time now. Everyone can see that stealing your watch is bad, but what about pressuring a spouse into sexual acts?

Define “pressuring”… is persisting in asking “pressuring”? Is initiating physical intimacy (not sex) “pressuring”? What, exactly, is “pressuring”??

Taking advantage of drunk people? Accepting no answer as an affirmative answer? These are the actual questions concerning the rape debate, not your white middle class fantasies about otherized criminals preying on girls in slutty dresses.

What “rape debate”?? If someone didn’t consent to the act, it is rape. Debate over! But proving non-consent is a far more difficult problem in 99% of cases than defining precisely what does or does not constitute consent. So, you feminists are focusing on the wrong problem.

Clayton -

[ClaytonB]

Since I seemed to have started this thread, my thesis is

I wasn’t answer your thesis, I was answering the thesis of the poster.

actually along the lines of: Men should combat rape culture in all cases; culturally, emotionally, physically, psychologically, and judicially.

a) Whoever suggested otherwise (in the libertarian camp)?

b) Why the hell would any man not, automatically, oppose rape (or “rape culture”). Particularly young, non-gang-affiliated males who are at the highest risk of being rape victims in the event they are charged with a crime, which could be something as trivial as possession of marijuana? Statistically, most prison-rapes occur in the county jail and the victims are not “hard-time” criminals, they are hapless minor offenders.

Rape was never a “women’s issue” to begin with.

It should not simply rest on the woman to defend herself from rape, because “it happens” or merely “rapists exist,” but should confront the problem head on, to go beyond telling a woman how to live in fear because of rapists, but instead confront a culture that breeds rape culture and elements and language of sexism as being okay or tolerable. If you only tell women to defend themselves, but do not teach people the way they view and objectify women in a way that’s demeaning, rape will happen.

I haven’t even touched on the causes of rape up to this point. But you are assuming that the cause of rape is not something deep-seated (i.e. genetic) and that is what boggles my mind. You’re never going to “convince” someone that they shouldn’t commit a rape. If the opportunity arises, and they are the sort of individual who will engage in that kind of behavior, it’s going to happen. For women (who are the primary victim demographic), my advice is that they should avoid walking/running alone at night (a well-trained dog is a suitable self-defense measure, in combination with some other self-defense capacity), they should avoid any situation where they can be “cornered”, and if they don’t know what sort of situation they might be in (e.g. traveling alone), they should dress/behave defensively to minimize their risks.

Strawman. Let’s find all my friends - or better yet everyone, whether female or male, who have been sexually assualted, and tell them it was a bad decision on their part, because they happened to be in a safe environment, with people they knew, and were not wearing “loose” clothing. The precautions they took were not enough. They were raped, it falls on them, right?

WTF, Bert, I thought you were one of the good guys. Why are you are you playing bait and switch?? The poster specifically uses the word “prevent”. Crime prevention is a security concern. And, yes, security extends even into your home and your personal life. This is why you should not make dangerous friends or be friends with people who seem like the type that might come and steal your valuables. But the moment I point that out as a matter of prudence, you switch to discussing culpability - this is just downright dishonest; it’s the old bait and switch trick.

Let me know if you plan to continue posting on VR. If you are, I’m done, I’m not going to be associated with this trash.

Clayton -

[ClaytonB]

Actually, you know what, fuck it, I have better things to do with my time. You and your ilk can have VR. I don’t know why I even signed up on that to begin with.

Clayton -

[Marko]

Totally figures the back and forth would contain itself to by far the least interesting bit about this.

I think we ought to revisit something much more interesting. How the kooks effectively accused Borowski of encouraging rapists and unknowingly or knowingly working to increase the instances of rape.

Borowski goes on to say she doesn’t find casual sex empowering. Ergo we are told by BleedingHeartLibertarians she is engaging in what they know as “slut shaming”. The implication being she is ‘perpetuating rape culture’ as we learn from Goodman this clique holds that “slut shaming” causes rape, causes victims of rape not to report it and for rapists to walk free.

So in a nutshell the two reactions of the kook brigade to a sexually promiscuous and sexually non-promiscuous women:

— the promiscuous woman: Since I’ve come to be more sexualy promiscuous I feel much more confident, powerful and generally happier with myself.
— the Kook brigade: Oh, that’s good for you.

— the non-promiscuous woman: I’ve never tried it, but the way I am, I think if I became promiscuous I would have to think less of myself
— the Kook brigade: Oh, you evil person, you are perpetuating rape culture, making it more likely victims of rape do not come forth and are stigmatized while rape is excused and rapists suffer no consequences!

What is the point of these kooks? Women can be non-promiscuous, but then they should make sure to stay in the closet? They should keep quiet about it, or else they’re perpetuating rape culture? I’m sorry but isn’t that opressive of women? Shouldn’t women feel free to say they aren’t into promiscuity? To come out of the closet as non-promiscuous women without having to fear being accused of rooting for rape???

The sooner you people realize that a hoodlum jumping from the bushes and raping the careless maiden isn’t the problem with rape culture, the better we will all be off.

By clinging to this comforting stereotype, you’re purposefully ignoring that most cases of rape occur in supposedly safe spaces:

*Rape often occurs in one’s home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.

Much more interesting. I for one know about this. This being the case why is supposed “slut shaming” targeted so zealously? Since in fact virtually all rape has jack shit to do with what the victim is wearing or how promiscuous she is, it would follow “slut shaming” actually does nothing to cause rape. Maybe I would see a connection if every Disco night, it was also Massive Rape night, with provocatively dressed women being raped on every corner, but since it isn’t, that seems like conclusive proof critiquing women for dressing provocatively or whatever does not cause them to be raped. It sounds instead there is emotional blackmail going on with trying to shame these “slut shamers” into silence by making them out to be the inspiration for rapists.

Also I would like an explanation for what this “rape culture” is supposed to be. A number of you have invoked it by now, all talking about it very casualy as if you were talking about “maize culture” or something. You want to say this is something mainstream and socially acceptable or what?

[Physiocrat]

Ok. So what actually is “slut shaming” and “rape culture”? I’ll try.

All “slut shaming” seems to be is saying that being a promisicious woman is bad and saying so. I fail to see why this should cause such consternation unless being chaste is somehow morally reprehensible.

“Rape culture” seems to be a pervading view amongst groups of men that rape (unconsenual sex) with women is morally legitimate.

I fail to see how the former encourages the latter. Further I doubt whether in fact a rape culture does in fact exist in most of society.

However most of the issues regarding rape and sexual ethics are a fall out from the disintegration of marriage and the Western Christian civilisation.

[mikachusetts]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

EDIT: Honestly, its totally absurd that people are openly stating that they have no idea what these terms mean, yet are still willing to say “you’re wrong.”

[Bert_B]

This has become sadly amusing, but in a sad manner. This is why the people of the left-of-center variety don’t like libertarians and why other people who focus more on social and cultural issues view libertarians as right wing.

I’m holding off doing a full post touching up on everything. I’ll just let everyone else burn themselves out.

[ClaytonB]

The only amusing/not-amusing thing here is that you’ve gone full postmodern feminist. You’ve chucked reason and logic out the window in favor of bait-and-switch rehetoric whose only function is to “appeal to an audience” and “make a point” rather than actually prove anything rationally. Such tactics indicate that truth is not in view… the only thing that matters is “winning the debate” in the eyes of lurkers and the audience.

The poster you linked is standard pomo feminist fare. Rather than appealing to facts and logic, the author has concocted some kind of psycho-emotional jujutsu that is supposed to override the reader’s reason and cause him or her to say to themselves, “Gee, wow, yeah, I’m not that kind of person… I had never thought of it that way.” When I point this out, your response is to double down with the same bait-and-switch argument… but what’s worse is you’re not just making a poster that you want to turn into a meme, you’re actually trying to prove your point in a debate with me using this poster’s non-rational argument.

Clayton -

[Physiocrat]

Re the existence of a rape culture.

It reminds me of a Flight of the Conchords episode in which they tell their manager they should do an anti-aids song to boost their record sales? The manager responds- “But won’t that alienate those who are pro-aids.”

Replace aids with rape and you’ll understand the rape culture, except in small pockets, is non-existent.

[Bert_B]

You say postmodern feminist like it’s a bad thing.

[ClaytonB]

Yes, it is. Hence, parting ways. I dabbled with postmodernism before discovering Mises… that’s when I realized that postmodernism is just the disfiguration of philosophy to save statism from its inevitable death at the hands of any rational philosophy. Postmodernism is “words as war”… aka garbage philosophy.

Clayton -

[Bert_B]

Well when people keep acting like rape culture, patriarchy, and sexism don’t exist in contemporary culture I’ll keep having “words at war”.

[HabbaBabba]

Man, how can anyone think feminism isn’t alive and well when a simple comment that casual sex isn’t empowering can cause so much vagina pain. Unfortunately it’s mostly “men” who seem to be the biggest feminists…

[Malachi]

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/video/ga-woman-kills-would-be-rapist/

if only more men were offended by the sight of cheerleaders and ring girls, that poor man might be alive today!

[wakefield4011]

I just want to throw more fuel on the rape culture fire: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/01/rape-corrected.html