And how is there an inequality now? Those who work hard earn more money. Everyone has this opportunity, and everyone already gets access to an education in the US. Dont give me this inner-city schools are no good mantra either- there are success stories from all of them where smart people worked hard to get out of a bad situation and became very successful.
The very idea of ‘class’ bothers me. I didnt expect on these forums to find someone who actually thought I should feel guilty because I’m intelligent. You believe that everyone on earth should be equal, when clearly we are not. Some people are smarter, some work harder, some get lucky. Yet you feel that, because there are poor(er) immigrants who didnt get lucky, who aren’t willing to make the sacrifices to improve their jobs/social standing, that the government should provide this for them. Let’s examine how crazy that is.
Let’s examine two groups here: Chinese immigrants and African immigrants. Take the Chinese people for example. The original immigrants were essentially slave labor for the railroads and such industries. Dirt poor, poor health, discrimination, etc. However, these people had great pride and work ethic, and they worked hard to improve their standing. The government never helped them, and now no one would argue that they’re very well-off in this country. Now for africans. Granted, many of them were not voluntary immigrants, and I dont want to discount slavery, but for this discussion it is irrelevant. They (post-emancipation) worked for crap wages, had poor health, were discriminated against etc just like the chinese. Yet the government stepped in. It required better opportunities a la affirmative action. Welfare came into play. Unemployment allowed people to not seek out serious work. The result? Minimal improvement in the economic department. This illustration is here not to imply that there’s any difference between chinese or african immigrants, because there isnt. It’s here to point out that where government gets involved to ‘help’ certain people (be it a race, religion, socioeconomic status), it ALWAYS screws it up, and costs more in the long run.
In short, if people want to improve their lives and afford better healthcare, NO ONE is stopping them from doing so. Get off the crutch of the “government as a provider” and take some responsability for your own actions and life. That’s what the people on this board are arguing for, that everyone is their own provider, and that I will never be my brother’s keeper at the point of a gun, as the government demands.
Cesar, since quality free healthcare is a fundamental right of all people, how do you justify that you yourself are not studying medicine with the intention of going around the world and offering people quality healthcare services free of charge out of your own expense?
How dare you deny the people their fundamental right? You are like a person who belives people have a fundamental right to their lives, but goes around murdering people denying them that right anyway. In other words you are a hypocrite.
You are right my friend and trust me I agree with you. But your free market argument is very quantitative. My stuff about Healthcare and Education is about Economics but might not fit in free markets. Also as you called it value judgments, I disagree, I think the benefits of Healthcare and Education are very qualitative and lack the quantitative characteristics that would have in a free market full of nice Balance sheets and Income statements.
In fact I dont have any official position about Healthcare and Education other than WE NEED IT FOR EVERYONE and WE NEED TO FIND HOW TO DO IT. And you have to convince me free markets is the way.
I know my English does not sound good to you. But I am no fool my friend, I have a BS Economics and an MBA in Finance.
Ever heard the saying no atheist in a foxhole. You tell you dying or deceased son that you cannot afford to pay for his healthcare…but it’s ok because you believe in free markets. Right??
And you’d rather tell me at the point of a gun to save your dying son? See here’s the issue you’re ignoring: if your son is dying, private charity will step in. The church, individuals who want to help, hospitals that provide free care based off grants from wealthy donors. The government is not the only provider, and with the government out of the way, these others will have more ability to provide. And even if they did not, using a gun to force action is slavery, not an argument. Remember, reason ends where the barrel begins.
I’m really sorry to have to use this term but, that is a brilliant example of vulgar libertarianism if I’ve ever seen one. Today’s society does not reward people for their ability to satisfy the needs of others. That’s the problem of coercion, that only under the state does distribution become detatched from production.
Aside from the lack of coherence you also jumped from “everybody deserves healthcare” to “the state can provide everybody with healthcare” to “only the state can provide everybody with healthcare”.
I guess is criminal and stealing ( as I have been told) to take money from anyone to pay for others need. Well, for hundreds of years now citizens are taxed to pay for wars. If there is nothing you can do to prevent that from happening, why do you get outraged if they come to tax you some more to pay for other’s people’s well being ??? That is discussing.
Just pulled the page, as I was unfamiliar with the term. If you’d explain what you meant by it, I would appreciate it.
From my basic understanding of the term, it would seem you’re implying that I support the current status-quo of business interests, under the false beleif that businesses are powerful because they earned it, rather than the government gave it to them. I do no believe this at all, but rather believe that in a true free-market, there would still be dominant businesses, because there are people who are simply better at running business than others. Would Jeff Immelt be any less of a great business leader without government intervention? I beleive he would have been just as good. I dont blame current businesses for taking advantage of the government and lobbying system. You do whatever you can to create shareholder value, and it would be stupid to not manipulate the system to your advantage. Do I believe it is just? No way. Do I want it to stop? Absolutely. Let the market decide everything. But still, this does not defeat my argument that genetics and luck creates big business and provides opportunities for people.
And upon further research, it was the creator of the term Vulgar Libertarians, Kevin Carson, who lumped in Mises.
See 25%down he quotes Human Action
Seems this term is used by conspiracy theorists that argue that all industry is out to abuse the workers?
Ok, I understand now. My argument is simple: I dont want to pay for your war either. Iraq did nothing to me. Vietnam did nothing to us in the 60’s. If they people want to pay for it, they may. I choose not to. In the 40’s I would have gladly paid money to fight Germany. And what I can do to prevent that from happening is to support the removal of this government, to support free thinking sites such as this one, to let my voice be heard, and know that eventually reason triumphs.
I my modest opinion. Free Markets means no govt whatsoever. That is very unrealistic. You will always have someone to tax you, even your wife.
So…if govt will always be around to tax you to pay for their friends. Why does it bother you to be tax so that others can get a better education and healthcare???
Maybe you dont mind being tax for wars, because you believe your army is here to protect you.
I guess in a free market of yours, why have an army???
I think I have to agree. Cesar, I suggest you read all the threads that discuss these topics in depth. Also browse the recommended reading list, and especially read Human Action if you haven’t. I would also suggest Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, though it’s Rayndian views are not always appreciated on this site. At least here everyone will listen and have a conversation with you. Once you’ve done more research, I’m sure everyone on the board will be happy to discuss these things with you.