Frustruation Over Highschool History and Economics Classes

Like some of the other members at Mises.org, I go to high school. And like most of these other members, I’m having some problems with my some of my high school classes; specifically, economics and United States history, Now, my problems with these classes have nothing to do with grades, homework or tests; I perform academically well in both of these courses. My issues are over what is taught.

Now, I understand that Austrian teachers are incredibly rare, so only incredibly lucky students are taught by them. This leaves the lucky (as opposed to “incredibly lucky”) and unlucky students. From what I’ve seen, the lucky students are placed with a Chicagoite teacher, who are uncommon, but not as rare as Austrian teachers. The unlucky students are stuck with a Keynesian or other leftist economic teacher, who appear to make up a disturbing amount of economic academia. I am one of the unlucky students. And what makes matters worse, is that not only am I taught economics by a Keynesian, but I’m also taught history by a Keynesian (a “New Deal Democrat”, to be more precise), as well.

Sometimes I debate them in class, sometimes I let what they say slide. What makes it especially tempting is that in economics, our textbook actually references anarcho-capitalism and refutes it as “problematic” by either making up ridiculous scenarios (What if everyone’s employer just stopped paying them?) or stating economic fallacies that would be solved in such a system (the pubic utility “problem”, the externalities problem, etc.)

My history teacher has told us time and time again how “necessary” the New Deal was, and how it “saved” our economy. Now, I’m no expert on New Deal economics, but from what I’ve read about it, it’s based on incredibly basic economic fallacies, many of which are refuted in Economcs in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt. For example, the New Deal’s agricultural program had the government buy crops from farmers to keep prices raised (the government was offering a “supply” of money at the farmer’s “demand”, so prices were kept up); this is simply a subsidy of bad farmers by the rest of the populace, using their own money. As Hazlitt would say, Person A profits, while taxpayer B, C, and D suffers.

So I’ve come up with two courses of action to follow. The first is that I simply keep my head down, cause as little ruckus as possible, get the grade, and move on. The second is that I should politely debate them, or at least dissent to their opinion and provide a counter point, if only for the benefit of others in the class who will take what their teacher says as gospel. Do any former or fellow high school Austrians have advice for me on what I should do? Keep in mind that neither of these teachers are cruel or vindictive; I’m on good terms with both teachers, and find both of them to be likeable. Thanks.

***NOTE: Obviously, I’m not going to give out any personal information, such as the names of teachers or the school that I go to. Also, I wasn’t sure if this should be put in the Questions forum or not, so if I put it in the wrong forum, feel free to move it.

I suggest debating with prepared material. Know the topic or topics to be discussed before class, acquire relevant material for it, and use it during class when appropriate.

well, i understand your situation. but i would consider a third option. ask the teacher questions to try and better understand their position.

i think one unfortunate impression young people get from reading hazlitt and others is that most political and economic disputes are easily reducable to basic errors in reasoning on the part of their intellectual opponents.

i often find that disagreements are much more complicated. in my experience my intellectual opponents are not often making obvious errors of logic, they are just either making different assumptions about reality (for example different assumptions about market structure can lead to very different conclusions) or different value judgements (some people value improvements in social welfare over losses to individual freedom).

i would say that this is so often the case that if your opponents argument look foolish you should first assume you don’t properly understand them.

so my advice is to try and better understand his position. look on this class as a learning experience not a teaching experience. :slight_smile: good luck.

Ask them if they think they would still have that job if your and your collegue’s parents weren’t forced to pay for it through taxes.

If he says no, well, then why do we have to listen to you? If he says yes, then why is the coercion necessary? Haha.

If he’s honest he’d say no and “because I say so” but that would be too honest. They most likely say yes.. and then.. “because I said so”.Then you can bring conflict of interest in being paid with coerced money to teach, yet teaching only that which perpetuates their job, etc.

I didn’t do any of that though when I was in hs, I wasn’t familiar with AE and wouldn’t have the balls. Well, still don’t, tbh.

edit: this blog has everything about public education imo, somewhat popular too http://www.schoolsucksproject.com/podcasts

Student is right. Just learn what they are teaching. Don’t accept it as truth, but accept it in the sense that many people believe it and is therefore worth knowing something about it (if for no other reason, then to be able to criticize it with true understanding of its foundations).

Agreed. Hazlitt has more material on the New Deal than just his Economics in One Lesson.

I’ve kept my mouth shut before in situations like these before. I like good grades better than winning. In my case, the teacher was apt to be vindictive.

I’d usually argue with my teachers to some degree. However when I did most of my arguing, I was a whiny creationist, patriotic neo-con

If you’re not afraid of bad grades due to them “getting back” at you, then challenge them. Can’t hurt if they’re nice people.

Wait- your High School textbook references Anarcho-Capitalism? Directly? I don’t suppose you could divulge the book’s title?

Stop wasting your time in this school. Don’t you have better things to do? Start living your life!

Man, be more humble and let go. There is no need for battles on ideas in school (good terms with your teachers aside). Same for the workplace or any formal area.

There’s a certain line you have to draw, unless you want to be like Milton Friedman, who’d try to debate his economics views with every waiter, taxi driver, hospital nurse, or newspaper salesman he met on a day to day basis. From a distance he was praised a man of passion, but from close up, this behaviour seemed strange and unbecoming.

I don’t even talk hard politics in real life, out of pure politeness.

Anyway: “but I’m taught history by a Keynesian (a “New Deal Democrat”, to be more precise), as well.”

Heh. There’s plenty of things done in the New Deal that make me wonder if even Keynes would have agreed with them. If one has to know what Keynes and early Keynesians were like, they would probably also be nothing like the members of today’s American Democratic Party. Keynes thought that taxes more than 25% were outrageous, was generally for very conservative politics, and preferred artistic aesthetic pursuits, as opposed to American Democrats who hang out with rich businessmen and intellectually shallow celebrities. At least Keynes was in a secret club of chauvinistic gay men who discussed philosophy. Democrats only glorify money, bombing foreign nations, and hedonism.

Whether or not I agree with some of his viewpoints, that’s an extremely admirable quality of his that I’ve always tried to emulate. The only line that need be drawn is what exactly your viewpoints should be if you’re not prepared to deal with somebody attacking you for them, just as if your very life was threatened.

Would you also not warn somebody that somebody is aiming a gun at them out of pure politeness? The more people who even start to think about the illegitimacy of the State, even if it’s slightly beyond “Pah! Ridiculous! Everyone would die in a day!”, the better.

I would not not engage them in class at first. If the teacher has office hours, try to bring it up then, during non-class hours. It’s a more professional approach than underming a teacher’s authority in the classroom. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, the good teacher love a challenging student. It shows that you are processing the information and are actually learning it.

That just doesn’t work. Going around preaching about anarchy will just make people think you’re crazy. People must be introduced to liberty gently, drop subtle hints. Offer voluntary solutions to any problem they see with society. Only later can you introduce them to market anarchism.

Contemporary Economics by William A. McEachern. It should be noted that it calls it by a different name, “pure free market economy” as opposed to “anarcho-capitalism”, though they both have the same definition.

EDIT: I can’t get the forum to quote properly. This was was in reply to Michelangelo.

I understand that there’s a lot more to the New Deal then what is described in Economics in One Lesson. My problem is that I’m not as “educated” as I probably should be on Austrian economics. I’ve only been introduced to AE a little over three months ago, and I’m currently working my way through Man, Economy, and State. Part of my frusturation is that by the time I’ve read enough to successfully deflect any arguments against central planning (America’s Great Depression, What Has The Government Done To Our Money?, The Case Against The Fed, etc.) we will have already progressed past discussing said topic. I don’t want to rush through Austrian economics, but I feel pressured to do so.

And my apologies if any of this comes off as whining, for if this is the case (as I suspect it might be), it is not intentional.

EDIT: This is a reply for MrSchnapps.

Im more of an an-synd than an an-cap, but I can tell you the “government will shoot you for taxes” argument always seemed silly, and had no bearing on my conversion. I was much more persuaded, as a leftist, when shown the way the State props up and maintains corporations and corporate law at the behest of the general populace; the “if its too big to fail, it is too big to exist” argument was much more persuasive.

People see taxes and government (not necesarily the state) as natural to human societies. Trying to convince them that it is coercion usually only works on hard-core rightists.

(Disclaimer; I dont see one being left or right as inherently bad. I appreciate both Ron Paul and Chomsky [dont flame me :D]. I see coercion and exploitation as bad, regardless of what views the person uses to justify it)

I know I had this issue with my econonomics/gov’t teacher-[ I was still, I’d guess you’d call it neo-con? (not sure what I was/don’t remember) when I had US history- and even then, I wouldn’t have tried to say/do anything- he was a former football player and current wide-reciever coach]

I was lucky in my teacher being open and willing to have other views experessed- probably since he had just swapped to teaching 12th grade from 5th, and was trying anything and everything to help students pass the AP exam. For you, I’d recommend out of class discussions first to see where your teacher is for being open to alternative views, and proceed carefully, last thing you’d want is a failing mark, especially if it is a required course to graduate.

The more you are open to learning, the more you wll learn. Think of yourself in a very good situation right now. You are learning two opposing view points; moreover, think how much more passionate, educational, and interesting that will make your assigned papers where you get to examine historical events. The more open you are to what the teacher is trying to teach you, the better. Right now you have 2 “teachers”, Rothbard and your school proctor, and perhaps an outlet to work out your thoughts (assigned papers).

That class is not the last place on Earth to discuss economics. Maybe you will miss the chance because you are not ready. So what? Plenty more opportunitites will present themselves, and if they don’t you can create them.

So read up now while the iron is hot.

Challenge your teacher to a debate at debate.org >:expressionless: