Government - illegitimate or just undesirable?

Hi,

I’m writing this because I’m finding it difficult to come up with a bulletproof argument against the government’s legitimacy. That is, I could always come up with some ways of countering these arguments to a lesser or greater extent.

Let’s see how an usual argument goes. Say the government is illegitimate because it arises as a form of coercion. There’s no point of contention in this: aggression pointed towards people in a given area should not be a means to claim sovereignty (which after all is a misleading concept) or even property. Since they’re being aggressed upon on grounds of arbitrary rules and might, the victims could rightfully defend themselves by whatever means.

However, let’s stop for a minute and think how this applies to non-governmental entities, within an anarchic society. It would be natural to assume private courts and PDAs would be subject to the same priniciple. That means that such an entity should restrict its actions to what is agreed upon by the parties involved in a litigation. Moreover, it should accept that every such agreement must be continuously consented upon, otherwise we must agree on the possibility of someone entrusting an entity with discretionary, unrevokable power in a given matter. Therefore, no force should be used to enforce contracts or undo wrongs, except in direct defense of one’s own self or property. Such entities should only help to marginalize those who do not obey contracts or do wrong things. For example, a murder happening somewhere should not be punishable through aggression. Otherwise, anyone may claim he has been aggressed upon, may deny the legitimacy of the aggressor and could equate the punishment with an arbitrary rule.

Getting back to the state’s legitimacy, the last paragraph tells us we can’t take action against any government as long as we’re not doing it in self-defense. Nobody can take action against goverment by simply stating that it’s illegitimate. Descendents of those who have lost their freedom to the state, as well as immigrants, would have no business trying to fight the established sovereignty through violence or breaking rules, especially since the alleged initial victims are probably long gone.

Similarly, if the government happens to be overthrown and its properties become up for grabs, the new owners would not be legitimate regardless of the new political situation, anarchy or not. Stealing from a thief does not constitute rightful ownership. Only if the goverment was to fall without being aggressed upon we could conclude that those new owners (in fact, homesteaders) would be legitimate.

But it’s very difficult to define exactly what government is and what constitutes aggression against it. Is it a corporation? Is sovereignty essentially property? If this is true, the government must properly state who is a “stockholder”, how much everybody owns and just what kinds of decisions can be taken.

Still, a land owner is a land owner, and he isn’t required to have written rules or agreements in order to decide when to kick trespassers out.

Is it possible to counter this counter-argument? Or should we just conclude government is simply undesirable?

(By “illegitimate” in the title I mean illegitimate with respect to us right now. Sure, legitimacy isn’t such a relative aspect, but in other words “are our hands tied or not?”.)

Some people say that when a man murders somebody he gives up part of his right not to be aggressed upon, and can be punished up to what is proportionate. Similarly in contracts, there would probably be some clause saying what would happen if somebody involved did not do what the contract said. (Maybe a fine or something)

I’m a bit new here, but that’s what I’ve picking up from reading the forums and some articles.

Since the state exists by robbery and force, and perpetuates itself through untold violence, and since nobody is allowed to become independent of it, I propose that we assume it’s illegitimacy, and put the burden of proof on those who claim otherwise. Simple.

Estoppel…

It is a reaction to the violation of rights, aggression satisfied…

Have you read No Treason by Lysander Spooner?

Start there…

It is called estoppel…

An aggressor is estopped from claiming aggression when it is the result of the aggression he primarily committed…

Given the nature of the state and the circumstances requisite for it’s very existence, why not conclude that it’s illegitimate and place the burden of proof on those who would claim otherwise? Or in other words, why are we to assume first that the state is legitimate, and proceed to dismantle that position, given the obvious violence and aggression explicitly requisite for the state to even exist?

It is tricky. He might deny (or renounce) the authority of the one trying to do justice. He might also deny the facts and claim he never commited the alleged crimes. In these cases, there’s no reason to assume he’s wrong, unless obvious proof is available. Having a court decide aggressive punishment in not-so-obvious instances is bound to cause such issues in at least some cases.

That works, but causes problems later on. Suppose it delves into anarchy or government changes. While in either cases some force destroys the initial aggressor, the new owners/governors are still required to prove their legitimacy. Unless they do so, be it anarchy or not, they would default to illegitimate.

But besides the concept of estoppel which we were discussing a bit earlier, there seems to be little reason to assume the state is aggressive against the current inhabitants. If your bike is stolen by a thief, is your grandson entitled to aggress against the thief’s grandson 100 years later, even if only to get the bike back?

No. Just because agression happened to your predecessors and they did not defend themselves doesn’t mean that you can’t.

false analogy. Also, if government fell without agression and a new coercive government, it is still illigetimate because there is coercion.

Good points hashem. Is there an elephant in the room?

As though it doesn’t already? Without the state (the necessary presence of the free market), courts would naturally work incredibly more efficiently and honestly. Police and Lawyers would too, and so would investigators. Less crimes would be committed on the whole, because there would be much less incentive for crime and much more incentive against it. What’s the problem?

Innocent until proven guilty is a natural right that I see as a direct corollary of liberty (an event involving no physical coercion) and life (person).

Estoppel, as far as I understand, comes into play when the person is prosecuted as a criminal. Thus, as Harry said, estoppel happens as a “result of the aggression he primarily committed”. That statement is pointing out he/she has “committed” the crime, prosecution has already happened.

There are debates against estoppel and writings that support it. Here’s a link to a thread that gets into criminal repercussion inquiries further.

Heard about it, but didn’t read it before. I will delve into it deeper.

However, to quote Spooner on the constitution:

That is true, however it assumes this is a proper contract. But if we take government as an exercise of sovereignty, therefore property in some extended sense, such internal agreements need not be of any significance to third parties. If it is property they can do whatever they wish, even break such promises or make up additional terms at any moment. For example, even if I issue an “internal law” stating that everybody is welcome on my property, I can kick anyone out whenever I feel like.

But I agree it’s hard to tell who is a rightful owner of (a part of) the government.

Yes, but you need to prove the aggression continues. How does one prove the aggression does continue and is not limited to the ancestors? Because if it doesn’t, the goverment could be allowed to free ride on the past and become a rightful owner of that land.

The goverment could claim free riding on a past situation gives rightful property. In that case, it would only require it to let you leave, but as long as you stay you have to agree with their rules. The government could in theory reply that the inhabitants don’t really own their properties, instead they’re only welcome there.

Could you elaborate on why this is a false analogy? Why wouldn’t this apply in an incipient anarchy when the properties formerly owned by a goverment are “stolen” by other people?

So they prove their legitimacy. Problem solved. Of course, they could not rule anyone. They could not steal (aka tax) to fund their operations, could not force anyone to obey them, and could have no sort of special privileges, immunities, or rights which others don’t have.

Estoppel is illegitimate. It presumes that a promise is a binding contract. A promise is not a binding contract. To quote Hobbes, “Words alone, if they be of the time to come, and contain a bare promise [nudum pactum], are an insufficient sign of a free gift and therefore not obligatory. For if they be of the time to come, as tomorrow I will give, they are a sign I have not yet given, and consequently that my right is not transferred, but remaineth till I transfer it by some other act. But if the words be of the time present, or past, as, I have given, or do give to be delivered tomorrow, then this is my tomorrow’s right given away today. . . . There is a great difference in the signification of [the] words . . . between I will that this be thine tomorrow, and I will give it thee tomorrow: for the word I will, in the former manner of speech signifies a promise of an act of the will present; but in the latter, it signifies a promise of an act of the will to come: and therefore the former words, being of the present, transfer a future right; the latter, that be of the future, transfer nothing.”

How can the state possibly not be aggressive?? It forces people to obey its commands at gunpoint, it expropriates its victims to obtain income through violent robbery, it enslaves its victims regularly, it monopolizes critical functions of the economy, it murders its victims, and it breaks the general moral law as well as its own laws. Again, the burden of proof is on those who disagree. The state is certainly illegitimate.

Even 10,000 years later, yes. The bike is not properly anyone’s besides the owners or his heirs. Perhaps the unjust owners 10,000 years from now will understand that their stolen property is not rightly theirs, and will return it without the need of force. It is clearly illegal for anyone to keep stolen property from it’s just owners.

are you talking about theoretical governments, or about actual ones?

Hmm… good point. I think it’s about theoretical governments. Whatever the conclusion is, to apply it to an actual one would require gathering facts and providing some evidence to show it applies to a particular situation. I admit I’m playing the devil’s advocate here.

if you posit a theoretical government that does legitimately own all the land, and anyone on its territory is a guest and must play by house rules or get off then it sounds like you have just described a spectacularly endowed landowner. but the point is there is a difference between large landowners and governments. governments do not own all the land of the country they control. governments typically use stolen goods of their ‘citizens’ to buy private land, or pay their bully squads to appropriate private land, and then call these lands public buildings and parks etc. so even the land they do '‘own’ (or call themselves the owners of) they dont own legitimately. …

Not quite.

Property title need not be perfect. The property simply belongs to the person with the best claim. A property owner need not prove conclusively that he has the first title, he merely needs to have a better claim than any who challenges.

If an ownerless watch is found on the street then it belongs to the finder. The fact that we know there is a person in the world with a better claim to the watch, the person who actually lost it, does not mean that any third party can remove the watch from the finder. He has a better claim to the watch than anyone other than the actual owner, so it will remain with him until the owner comes to claim it.

In the case of the State, property would belong to whoever was most proximate until a person with a better title came to claim it. And this could happen several times until the property belongs to the most rightful owner.

Or until a representative/heir of the just title holder (not owner, anyone who holds/possesses the property is the “owner”) siezes it. Remember, property always belongs to the just title holder, not just any title holder, and not necessarily any owner – own just means to possess or hold.

An unjust owner might be the thief. Someone who the thief transferred title of his unjustly owned property to, would be an unjust title holder. Still, you are right since what you are probably trying to say is that property can be homesteaded in the absence of the just title owner or his representatives.

JonBostwick, I think you’re pretty spot on a lot of the time, so it seemed like I would help your cause by clarifying your argument. But none of this legitimizes government or the state…

In the case of a known thief(including the state), then any innocent person has a better claim to the property than the thief. And it would belong to the first person to dispossess the thief, this could include an unwitting purchaser(but not an accomplice.)