Government - illegitimate or just undesirable?

[Juan]

Anarcho-capitalist societies and the like are unstable and the proof is that they don’t exist.

LOL. If there really existed an ‘unstable’ ancap society, then you could say such society is an example of…an unstable ancap society. In reality there’s never been a truly voluntary society so your non-existent ‘empirical’ evidence proves nothing.

Look, before planes were built, there were no planes. That in your mind proves…what ? That planes are impossible or ‘unstable’ ?

[baxter]

FYI it’s best not to be too dogmatic. Most ethical systems collapse utterly when applied to different kinds of beings: animals, plants, children, mentally handicapped people, etc.

For example, keeping your infant trapped in a crib is illegal incarceration unless the infant showed consent.

The credit card transaction bounced and the flyer does not have a right to be aboard the airplane. It is acceptable to forcefully eject him.

Animals are property and can be slain and eaten. Likewise, one is free to damage their property for their own amusement.

Bodily secretions are my property and I am free to sell them. Children are a kind of bodily secretion.

The glint in the milk man’s eye is a potential human being; refusing to mate with him is equivalent to murder.

etc.

IMHO adopting any ethics beyond loose rules of thumb is doomed to logical inconsistency.

[Juan]

FYI it’s best not to be too dogmatic.

Irony is dead.

[baxter]

In reality there’s never been a truly voluntary society

Not true, governments did not exist for many tens of thousands of years. Since about 10,000 years ago, they have a life of their own now and cannot be extinguished from any spot for long. Anarcho-capitalism is unstable in the same way that absence of living things in a given area is an unstable situation.

Adults want a government and an invisible sky daddy for the same reason that children want parents and Santa Claus. I don’t see this changing any time soon.

Personally I agree with Ludwig von Mises and want a government, although a much less expensive one.

[hashem]

@baxter

“Governments are illegitimate because they do not have consent of the governed.” - And people are illegitimate because they frequently violate property rights.

Wrong. Governments are illegitimate because they NECESSARILY violtate rights. People do not necessarily violate rights.

[Harry_Felker]

@baxter

FYI it’s best not to be too dogmatic. Most ethical systems collapse utterly when applied to different kinds of beings: animals, plants, children, mentally handicapped people, etc.

For example, keeping your infant trapped in a crib is illegal incarceration unless the infant showed consent.

The credit card transaction bounced and the flyer does not have a right to be aboard the airplane. It is acceptable to forcefully eject him.

Animals are property and can be slain and eaten. Likewise, one is free to damage their property for their own amusement.

Bodily secretions are my property and I am free to sell them. Children are a kind of bodily secretion.

The glint in the milk man’s eye is a potential human being; refusing to mate with him is equivalent to murder.

etc.

IMHO adopting any ethics beyond loose rules of thumb is doomed to logical inconsistency.

I am sorry but this needs to be said, there is something very wrong with you

[Harry_Felker]

@baxter

Adults want a government and an invisible sky daddy

Speak for yourself…

@baxter

Personally I agree with Ludwig von Mises and want a government, although a much less expensive one.

This is logically inconsistent, because despite how you want that government to be, having it hands the expression of such to other’s hands…

[Eduard_Gabriel_Munte]

@Spideynw

Governments are illegitimate because they do not have consent of the governed. Claiming they have consent because someone has not moved is meaningless. My rebuttal to that is always, “why should I have to move? Shouldn’t the government have to stop being tyrranical instead?”

Do property owners need to have the consent of those trespassing their property? Because the “you’re free to go away” statist argument implies the existence of some sort of property rights. The hardest point to prove seems to be whether the government property rights, which also requires a proof that agression continues past the original inhabitants of that land (i.e. illegitimacy goes away after they die, like a statute of limitations).

Now don’t get me wrong, I do agree that property rights do not give any right to steal from or imprison those trespassing on your property. Or they can only do so to the extent that trespassers do not wish to leave, but once they do choose to leave and they have the means to, any coercion should cease.

[Harry_Felker]

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

Do property owners need to have the consent of those trespassing their property? Because the “you’re free to go away” statist argument implies the existence of some sort of property rights. The hardest point to prove seems to be whether the government property rights, which also requires a proof that agression continues past the original inhabitants of that land (i.e. illegitimacy goes away after they die, like a statute of limitations).

Now don’t get me wrong, I do agree that property rights do not give any right to steal from or imprison those trespassing on your property. Or they can only do so to the extent that trespassers do not wish to leave, but once they do choose to leave and they have the means to, any coercion should cease.

@Roderick T. Long

Now, one objection that’s sometimes raised isn’t so much an objection to anarchism as an objection to the moral argument for anarchism: well, look, it’s not really a coercive monopoly. It’s not as though people haven’t consented to this because there’s a certain sense in which people have consented to the existing system – by living within the borders of a particular territory, by accepting the benefits the government offers, and so forth, they have, in effect, consented. Just as if you walk into a restaurant and sit down and say, “I’ll have a steak,” you don’t have to explicitly mention that you are agreeing to pay for it; it’s just sort of understood. By sitting down in the restaurant and asking for the steak, you are agreeing to pay for it. Likewise, the argument goes, if you sit down in the territory of this given state, and you accept benefits of police protection or something, then you’ve implicitly agreed to abide by its requirements. Now, notice that even if this argument works, it doesn’t settle the pragmatic question of whether this is the best working system.

But I think there is something dubious about this argument. It’s certainly true that if I go onto someone else’s property, then it seems like there’s an expectation that as long as I’m on their property I have to do as they say. I have to follow their rules. If I don’t want to follow their rules, then I’ve got to leave. So, I invite you over to my house, and when you come in I say, “You have to wear the funny hat.” And you say, “What’s this?” And I say, “Well, that’s the way it works in my house. Everyone has to wear the funny hat. Those are my rules.” Well, you can’t say, “I won’t wear the hat but I’m staying anyway.” These are my rules – they may be dumb rules, but I can do it.

Now suppose that you’re at home having dinner, and I’m your next-door-neighbor, and I come and knock on your door. You open the door, and I come in and I say, “You have to wear the funny hat.” And you say, “Why is this?” And I say, “Well, you moved in next door to me, didn’t you? By doing that, you sort of agreed.” And you say, “Well, wait a second! When did I agree to this?”

I think that the person who makes this argument is already assuming that the government has some legitimate jurisdiction over this territory. And then they say, well, now, anyone who is in the territory is therefore agreeing to the prevailing rules. But they’re assuming the very thing they’re trying to prove – namely that this jurisdiction over the territory is legitimate. If it’s not, then the government is just one more group of people living in this broad general geographical territory. But I’ve got my property, and exactly what their arrangements are I don’t know, but here I am in my property and they don’t own it – at least they haven’t given me any argument that they do – and so, the fact that I am living in “this country” means I am living in a certain geographical region that they have certain pretensions over – but the question is whether those pretensions are legitimate. You can’t assume it as a means to proving it.

[Eduard_Gabriel_Munte]

@Harry Felker

@Roderick T. Long

I think that the person who makes this argument is already assuming that the government has some legitimate jurisdiction over this territory. And then they say, well, now, anyone who is in the territory is therefore agreeing to the prevailing rules. But they’re assuming the very thing they’re trying to prove – namely that this jurisdiction over the territory is legitimate. If it’s not, then the government is just one more group of people living in this broad general geographical territory. But I’ve got my property, and exactly what their arrangements are I don’t know, but here I am in my property and they don’t own it – at least they haven’t given me any argument that they do – and so, the fact that I am living in “this country” means I am living in a certain geographical region that they have certain pretensions over – but the question is whether those pretensions are legitimate. You can’t assume it as a means to proving it.

I fully agree with this, and it does make things a bit more clear. However, my argument is a bit different. I do agree that the original inhabitants, who have been subjected to such coercion and false pretensions, would have had the right to deny obeying these rules. But, do we have this (moral) right now?

This isn’t all clear to me, and I have a few unanswered questions. Do we inherit the right to recover our ancestors’ lost properties? Do history and records provide such a good proof of such inheritance? And, most important, isn’t all property in a state somewhat tainted by being passed between innocent and government-supporting people alike? It seems to me anybody could claim my property because at some point one of my ancestors bought it from the state, which in turn stole it from legitimate owners.

Thanks so far.

[Bobt39]

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

This isn’t all clear to me, and I have a few unanswered questions. Do we inherit the right to recover our ancestors’ lost properties? Do history and records provide such a good proof of such inheritance? And, most important, isn’t all property in a state somewhat tainted by being passed between innocent and government-supporting people alike? It seems to me anybody could claim my property because at some point one of my ancestors bought it from the state, which in turn stole it from legitimate owners.

If you bought your property, then you are the legitimate owner unless someone can prove that it was stolen from them.

[nirgrahamUK]

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

Do we inherit the right to recover our ancestors’ lost properties?

sure, if your ancestors bequethed their belongings (including their stolen belongings) then the claims of the thief or the thiefs family or acquaintances are moot against this.

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

Do history and records provide such a good proof of such inheritance?

you cant ask such a general question about such particular problems. its like asking ,“so.. modern doctors with medical science know lots about the human body and illness and how to make people healthy and such, but can they diagonse my illness?”. answer; it depends!!!

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

sn’t all property in a state somewhat tainted by being passed between innocent and government-supporting people alike?

if it has been then yes, if it hasnt then no. besides, its no reason to accept tyranny.

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

It seems to me anybody could claim my property because at some point one of my ancestors bought it from the state, which in turn stole it from legitimate owners.

may the best claim win.

[baxter]

I am sorry but this needs to be said, there is something very wrong with you

Let’s discuss the issue at hand and not resort to ad hominem remarks.

Personally I agree with Ludwig von Mises and want a government, although a much less expensive one.
This is logically inconsistent, because gespite how you want that government to be, having it hands the expression of such to other’s hands…

Really? What other beliefs of Mises do you find “logically inconsistent”.

[Harry_Felker]

@Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

This isn’t all clear to me, and I have a few unanswered questions. Do we inherit the right to recover our ancestors’ lost properties? Do history and records provide such a good proof of such inheritance? And, most important, isn’t all property in a state somewhat tainted by being passed between innocent and government-supporting people alike? It seems to me anybody could claim my property because at some point one of my ancestors bought it from the state, which in turn stole it from legitimate owners.

If this is the case, everyone save for about 1 million people better pack their bags, because they are all trespassing…

There is a point of ridiculousness, and your bold hits right on it, if the state was illegitimate to begin with it does not matter who supports the state or not?

I do not think there is any historical record that is reliable enough to make any present day claims on land from before 1850, so I think you are pretty safe…

If we are discussing the Native Americans, my people did not claim any ownership of said property anyway, they did not believe they individually owned property (Land) because they understood the Earth to be alive, and therefore had self ownership… (Basic Translation)

[Harry_Felker]

@baxter

Let’s discuss the issue at hand

Using impossible trap situations is exactly how ethics is blurry, not in universal application…

@baxter

Really? What other beliefs of Mises do you find “logically inconsistent”.

Just that one…

And it is illogical to think that government, whose sole purpose is to increase in power will ever become “less expensive”

[baxter]

And it is illogical to think that government, whose sole purpose is to increase in power will ever become “less expensive”

It is not “illogical” and in fact it actually occurs. I’m curious what axioms you are using to prove that everything in sight is “illogical”.

Governments can shrink due to the intrusion of economic reality and with periodic collapses like with USSR. I predict that either California and/or the USA will collapse soon. Government can also become less expensive through the action of voters, which is what I seek when I vote.

It is not “illogical” to think that voters can organize such a change. Are you saying that there are municipalities within USA where no such change has a occured? Does reality violate your “logic” in this case, too?

Using impossible trap situations is exactly how ethics is blurry, not in universal application…

I can agree with that. Kind of like how non-relativistic mechanics fails when speeds near the speed of light are under consideration. But for most purposes, it’s fine.

One difference is that physics is a property of the universe, whereas an ethics are rather arbitrary - an ethical system that says commiting murder is good is certainly possible to hold. I guess the only real benchmark for ethics are whether they are in accordance with evolution. People with “bad” ethical systems tend to die out.

If you can see that keeping an infant in a crib is not illegal incarceration, then I assume you perceive the difference between different kinds of beings (infants and adults). Why can you not also admit governments as another class of being? One which can legitimately violate your property rights (e.g. taxation), just as you might violate an infant’s rights to roam around freely? At least consider the possibility that it’s not an illogical thought. Just as you are more than the sum of a few trillion cells, a government is not just the sum of its employees; it has a monopoly on acts of violence which is quite an extraordinary ability.

Does the universe violate your property rights because you grow old and die? Should you sue the universe?