Government Sponsored Scholarship

[quote=“Isaac “Izzy” Marmolejo”]
My point is that if you think the reason to justify using public roads is because one pays texes, then one can justify using financial aid because one pays taxes…
[/quote]

You still haven’t answered my two questions.

[quote=“Isaac “Izzy” Marmolejo”]
now saying this, “Well, if financial aid = $50,000, and you only paid <$50,000 in taxes, how can you justify it as ok,” does not rule out my position because one doesn’t justify using other public goods the same way. For example, on public roads, you cant just list the amount you paid in taxes in order to justify using public roads because (1) one does not know how much of his tax money is going to fund public roads and (2) one does not know the location of the roads his taxes contributed in. The only way I can see this as justified is if one just said , “I pay taxes, I am entitled to this service.”
[/quote]

This is an argument from ignorance. We know that money is fungible. Answer my two questions above please.

@liberty student

Ok, now we’re getting somewhere. I don’t think that is too unreasonable although it sounds like you are doing business for the use of stolen property. I’m not sure how you feel about that.

Yes, it is technically doing business with the state. However, both of us through our actions, are legitimizing and doing business with the state. Because portions of the money stolen from you is going into roads, the Post Office, museums, stadiums, food subsidies in the grocery store, etc you justify yourself using these services. I honestly see nothing wrong with doing so, but to argue that I’m in business with the state simply seems unfair and hypocritical. You are in business with the thieves as well, simply because you were one of their victims does not legitimize your dealings with them either.

Also, by your logic it seems you would view an anarcho-capitalist who is refusing to pay taxes, but still uses public roads, post office, and goes to see the occasional Saints game as legitimizing the theft. I’m trying to understand where your line of reasoning logically ends. I think we can both agree the hypothetical person is completely justified in not paying taxes and living more in-line with his principles than one who does pay taxes. Now don’t get me wrong, I understand not wanting to risk jail time and your livelihood by not paying taxes.

Are you entitled to an education? Is government sponsored schooling the only way to learn? Has no one been educated by LvMI, which rejects government sponsorship? Are you made a victim if your positive right to education is not fulfilled?

No, nobody is entitled to an education. No you are not a victim because education is not a positive right and I never claimed it was, nor did I claim I was a victim in this regard.

This is the BS part of your side of the argument. It isn’t coming back to me, but apparently it is coming back to you. Right? It’s ok for you to get my money, but I have to just accept it is gone.

I’m not saying it is right, but in essence you will get your money back as soon as I finish schooling and begin paying taxes. You will get all your money back + interest as soon as I repay the loans. Except for the fact you won’t actually get any of it back, the state will simply be reimbursed your stolen property + a little bit of mine. Yes I could not take the loan, but regardless of my decision it effects you in no way.

What anarchist explicitly contracts with and asks for services from the government?

The kind who refuses to let the governments BS influence his decisions and goals in life.

It is a false choice. It’s like rationalizing voting because SOMEONE is going to get elected. We have to vote for the lesser of two evils, because some evil will be elected. C’mon, no one buys this stuff.

Voting can be logically rationalized in rare cases. I could see the rationale behind voting for Ron Paul. I’m not sure if I ever would, simply because I fear his pro-liberty legislation and fiscal responsibility would simply delay the governments eventual collapse.

So you don’t believe in restitution or justice? If someone has harmed or stolen from me, your answer will be “too bad, they already have it?”

I did not say that, of course I believe in restitution and justice. I have not stolen from you, the government has. If I were to buy a stolen TV on the street should I be prosecuted or should the thief who stole it?

You don’t need a government loan to be a productive member of society. There are billions of us producing every day, some of us doing quite well, who haven’t fallen into the mind trap of needing some government credential to participate in the market.

The fact is, you want to go to school, for whatever reason, and you want to get that credential, which you do not necessarily need, and it has nothing to do with necessity, which is always the excuse for violating a law or principle.

Whether it is a lifeboat or this discussion, people always play the NECESSITY card when they want to violate rights or principles. In fact, most legal dictionaries cover necessity, as something , paraphrasing, “outside the (scope of the) law”

I do need that credential seeing as the field I’m going into makes it nearly impossible unless you are certified. I also plan to go to law school which requires you have a diploma. By your logic, all An-Caps and Libertarians should simply be welders, contractors, managers, etc. All of which are respectable jobs, but do you really believe simply because of our principles we should not become Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Biologists, Chemists, etc?

Also, do we not want people of our beliefs to find their way into academia?

I’m not playing the “NECESSITY card,” I’m playing the free will card. I’m going to do what I want with my life and not allow government regulations or protectionist practices to hinder me in achieving my goals. I can’t get into law school without a diploma, simple as that. The fact is however, it is a necessity I get a bachelors degree in order to get a law degree. It is not a necessity I get a law degree in which case it is not a necessity I get my bachelors, however as I said before, I’m not going to allow the government to shape my decisions in life.

@ Epicurus ibn Kalhoun

It will not “destroy” the state. It will only strengthen it. You give it all the justification it needs to continue. You can not pay it back, they’ll just throw you in prison to clean up roads and they will make the money back that way.

The government has seen fit to allow bankruptcy on school loans now. So you can default on them without threat of jail time although other negative aspects would still be there. Your credit would be ruined, you may have a hard time finding work, etc.

Does using the worthless U.S. dollar prove the dollar works? Do you buy everything with gold and silver?

You don’t need a degree to get into law school. It helps, but is not in any way necessary.

At least, that’s what my advisor told me.

I know some law schools allow you to begin taking law classes while still working towards your degree, and there may be some that only require some college, but I’ve never seen any good ones that don’t require college. There may also be law schools that don’t require you take the LSAT as part of their admission standards, but that likely means you will be attending a subpar school and have a hard time finding a job.

This school even requires two years of college working towards a B.A.

http://www.peoplescollegeoflaw.edu/

It seems to me that most of the arguments against accepting government money are based on a certain set of moral values. Because not everyone believes in morality and those that do believe in morality define it differently, this is not a question that can be answered by someone else, though I can appreciate your desire to get feedback and ideas from others.

If you take morality out of the question I do not believe there is an argument against taking from the state that is counter to the libertarian/anarchist cause.

Some here have tried to argue that we (anarchists, libertarians, etc.) need to “walk the walk” so as to not appear hypocritical in our assertions against the state but that only applies if others who you are trying to convince know of your taking from the state and even then I feel that you could logically argue the point and show that hypocrisy does not necessitate inaccuracy.

Others have tried to argue that the more we (people) take from the government then the more the government will steal from others, so by accepting handouts we are hurting productive members of society, and therefore hurting society as a whole (this assumes that we are less productive with the handout than those it was stolen from). I believe that this premise is inaccurate. I think the state will steal as much as it can and handout as little as it can to maintain order and receive popular support. This means that the same amount will be stolen regardless of how many handouts are given. On top of that, if you don’t accept the handout someone else will which means instead of you receiving the money and using it to further the libertarian/anarchist cause someone else will receive it and they may sponsor the socialist cause.

I don’t see how the issue of enforcement is relevent in a debate over moral principles.

I currently have government loans in order to attend school; seeing as the government has eliminated most private school loans. Now in my case, if I decide defaulting on them will be less of a burden than paying the interest plus taxes, is that more in line with my principles (seeing as I ensentially took welfare)? To those who oppose him taking the money, is it better I repay YOUR money back to the government, plus interest? Or is it better I simply default on the loans, so as not to provide the government with even more resources? You say you don’t want him taking your money, but are you as sure about me repaying your money back to the state, for the pure benifit of the state?

For the record, I also took out a student loan. If I had to do it all over again, I would have never done it.

I’m paying mine back, nor would I default on it, because I don’t want to be a net drain on net-taxpayers, of which I am one. Once I’ve paid it off, I morally owe no one anything, except for any private obligations I choose to take on.

‘I don’t see how the issue of enforcement is relevent in a debate over moral principles.’

Well in discussing rights over who can use what in accordance with their contribution, wouldn’t a theory of enforcement naturally imply itself? For what is a right without some form of enforcement?

The only reason that I would not default on a student loan is to not spoil a perfect credit rating.

I’m more concerned with living honestly myself than I am with what others are doing.

‘I’m more concerned with living honestly myself than I am with what others are doing.’

Well if that is the case then why present an answer that implies a judgement upon those around you and how they operate in their surrounding environment?

I’m operating on the assumption that others share the same goal, and that at least some ppl are willing to recognize what is right and live by it. Debating is a cooperative activity and it involves give and take.

I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with all this

I’m just glad to see only a minority here agree with me that welfare works (at least for yourselves, certainly not those welfare queen octo-moms). If it didn’t, why would you take it?

How well it “works” is hardly a consideration in whether people take it.

No one is debating there are tons of ideologies and positions compatible with welfare, but for the love of God, libertarian anarchism could not be more EXPLICITLY anti-welfare.

Please tell us what a libertarian is Micah. What separates a libertarian from a democrat, fascist, communist or a republican?

Not addressing the premise and trying to trip up the argument on a tangent.

Well it works for them. They get free stuff and then they rationalize taking it by saying it only affects a small group of people they care about at all.

And I can almost sympathize with this rationale, except I am frequently the one being ripped off, and while some can rationalize their use as “barely” affecting me, the aggregate use of everyone living off me really hurts. It’s like saying that one bee sting won’t kill someone, but in order to have one bee sting, it has to be possible to have thousands, and we know that can hurt someone very badly.

Your argument that it is ok for you to take a little from me, means you can’t say anyone else should not. So at the end of the day, we have millions of people extracting pennies from me each year. The impact of your belief that a person can take a little from me is enormous.

I feel bad for you young guys who are disenfranchised and have convinced yourselves that you have to get some government document so you can get some straight job and be what everyone wants you to be, in order to achieve some standard of social status and material comfort you are convinced is an acceptable norm. My 20s weren’t easy by any means, but there is an amazing world out there, particularly a commercial world that needs bright young minds, creating and building a better world now and for the future.

Hiding in school because it beats working at McDonalds is a false choice. There are hundreds of thousands of great careers and opportunities available in the private sector that require no credentials, just a burning passion to succeed and a devotion to serving others via exchange.

All these rationalizations from welfare seem to stem from people not really being committed to libertarian ideals. Which is ok, I don’t think a perfect libertarian man exists. I certainly am not him. But at the same time, I do recognize where I fail, and I try not to fail where I can afford it. I am not trying to convince myself that I need a degree and I need an expensive education in order to be a complete, happy and productive person. That’s simply bullcrap.

People want a free ride because they want something and won’t pay for it. End of story. Has nothing to do with principles, ethics, morals libertarianism etc. People will take if they don’t have to pay the costs. Not too many of you would insist on welfare if you had to come to my house to get the money. The state does the dirty work, and everyone claims they are arms length to the robbery. It is all so convenient.

Inigo Montoya Fallacy. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy, not an ethical stance. NAP is an ethical stance. Your ethics may align with the libertarianism political philosophy but using the word libertarianism to describe your ethical stance leads to confusion because people are assuming that you are using the word as it is defined. I believe in libertarianism. That does not necessarily mean that my ethical stance aligns with the NAP.

How can you define libertarianism without non-aggression? Are you talking about liberalism?