Healthcare question

Miscellaneous General
1

I’m new to economics and everything, and I’d like to ask a question. I exposed someone to the Stefan Karlsson article on healthcare (the one where he mentions Moore’s Sicko), and they started trying to tear it apart. Well, not really, just a few passages. I’ll show you their replies.

Karlsson’s article - Fact: That the U.S. health care system has a very high cost level is one of the few criticisms of it which is basically true. Regardless of how you calculate, U.S. health care costs are higher than anywhere else in the world. It should however be pointed out that many -including reportedly Michael Moore- exaggerate just how much more expensive it is by comparing the cost in PPP-adjusted dollars per capita. Since the U.S. is still the third richest country (After Luxembourg and Norway) in the world according to that method of comparison and because a higher average income will for various reasons drive up the cost in PPP-adjusted dollars this kind of comparison will exaggerate the relative extra cost, while greatly underestimating it in dirt poor Cuba.

Person trying to rip it apart: yeah, if only… if only everyone were in a management position and receive full insurance coverage AND a living wage. What a load of bull.

Wanna hear something?

If 50% of the population didn’t pay federal taxes in past years because of their income level being too low, that means 50% of the FRICKIN COUNTRY IS POOR.

Wow, Math… you scary.

Karlsson’s article: And it is also the case that the American health care system in practice function as an Atlas which carries the world’s medical research costs on its shoulders. In Sweden, Canada and most other countries, the government health system purchases medicine for very low prices which doesn’t cover the research costs needed to produce it. Drug companies still reluctantly agrees to this since the prices they receive still give them a small profit given the completion of the research needed to produce it and because they can in the United States charge prices which covers not only cost of production but also the cost of research and more. This factors means that real health care costs are overestimated in the United States while being underestimated in the favorite countries of Michael Moore and other socialists.

Person: Yeah, right. The exact same drug companies manufacture the exact same medication, whether you get it from Canada, Cuba or the USA.

And let’s face facts: people come over here and get educated at our (USA) colleges, and then can go practice medicine in any country they wish after the fact. They pay for their own schooling over here unless they get a scholarship or get a ride through military enlistment.

That still a cost, but has little to nothing to do with the country investing anything. In the case of going to college thru ROTC, the person who enlists for military service is doing so knowing full well that they are (essentially) exchanging their being educated with the number of years that they must be on active duty (think its 4-4… four years of college for 4 years of service, for a total of 8 years).

Fact of the matter is: the cost IS high for any sort of medical treatment in the USA. The only people who don’t really sweat it are the ones who are fully covered by their health insurer, with minimum risk of said insurer dropping their asses off the plan. AND THAT REALLY HAPPENS

And if the law requires that we pay health insurance, why not go one step further, make it a TAX and everyone get medical stuff provided thru government-regulated health coverage, like most MODERN countries do.

Sheesh.

/person’s response

So, does this person actually have any real points? I’m new to economics, so maybe I’m not seeing things, but I’m seeing more snarkiness than actual substance. Are some of these even arguments against the passages? I have a lot to learn, but I’m willing to listen.

2

Fact: Seeing this post hurt my eyes.

Fact: Couldn’t read it.

3

Sorry. I was trying to use colors to show the differing speakers. I’ll try to make it easier on the eyes.

4

I’m going to try and space it better, as well.

5

He seems to be pretty emotional, so don’t expect him to argue totally in good faith.

The first step for you, as a newbie to this, is to realize that the US healthcare market is certainly not free. There are major, signifigant intervention that have lead to the problems we have. As far as insurance goes, the primary problem is that it’s selected by the employer, not the actual insuree. Because of the highly controlled nature of the US market, there’s really no point in trying to prove that it is “better” than the European market. If Europe is better, so what? It just means that a semi-socialized medical care system is somewhat better than a corporatist/crony-capitalist system in the US.

That aside, your opponent’s points are falling flat. He completely misunderstands the material he’s repsonding to. In the first response, people being poor in the US has no relevence to the author’s argument that comparing prices in PPP (purchasing power parity) will tend to exaggerate the difference. On the second point, he just appears to dodge the question entirely and go on a rant about college education.

6

Oh, I know the U.S. system isn’t free, and I’ve never argued U.S. against European system. I’ve heard that before that “the Euro system may be better than the U.S., but so what?”.

Thanks for responding.

7

I suggest you drink in small sips if you are new to AE.

Peter Schiff is a great source of accesible analysis of current events using AE. Lew Rockwell has a short mp3s on lewrockwell.com about healthcare.

And as someone in another thread mentioned, google “site:mises.org healthcare” [without the quotes] for articles about it.

Bottom line. Healthcare around theworld is in an awful state. In Europe and Canada the situation is of a third world country, with long waits, like 6 months, to get any treatment etc. The reason is because the govt is responsible for providing the service directly, so of course it is total crap. I mean scary. People come from Canada to the USA for treatment despite paying in full for healthcare over there and then paying in full for treatment here, so bad is the quality of medicine there.

In the USA, since the govt doesnt directly run things, the service itself is not that bad. If you have the money, you can get excellent service. But things are indeed expensive here, because the govt pays medicare and medicaid, thus inflating prices.

Also in the USA, doctors have a little guild protected by law which lets them keep the pool of doctors small. It’s so bad that you are not allowed to build a hospital until you get permission from the other hospitals that already exist. You can imagine how eager they are have someone compete with them.

8

talking about economics like that is like saying, that hitting children with wooden stick is better than with metal one. But the main problem nobody in mainstream world see is that hitting children is BAD and immoral and there is no other middle ground. So again, topics like these always gonna be pointless rambling about how much violence is better, but it always ignore the fact that violence per se is a bad thing.

9

Useful info:

New member? READ THIS!

10

Thank you for the link.

Ryan Faulk is who got me interested in antistatism. His fringeelements.info site is down right now, and I hope it gets put back up in some form or another. I wouldn’t be surprised if he already had everything on another site.