Heroes?

Immigration is a tragedy of the commons. The government controls much of the land along the borders, and all of the roads into the country.

Because of this fact, many people, logically enough, feel the need to urge the government to restrict immgration into this territory on the grounds that we all “own” this land in a way, so we should be able to deny the tresspass of outsiders that we “collectively” disapprove of.

If the government owned no land, and instead all land was owned by various private individuals, then each of these landowners would be free to bar immigrants from their property, admit them freely, or admit them for a fee. There would be no question of a governmental “immigration policy” because immigration would simply consist of land-use agreements between pairs of individuals. It’s only because this land is now public property that people could argue that the restriction of immigration is legitimate.

The viability of the legal avenues for immigration is crucial! What the US federal government as done is establish a monumental bureaucracy through which potential immigrants must wade if they wish to come here legally. How anyone could be surprised by the phenomenon of illegal immigration is beyond me.

OK? I think you’ve missed the scare quotes.

It seems that we are using the term “migration control” in different senses. I was using it in the sense of national policy that will be coercively applied to all inhabitants of said nation. You are using it to describe freedom of association and private property rights. Well in the sense that you use it, sure, I’m a fan of migration control. I just think that you are using the term in a silly way that it is rarely associated with.

There’s really no difference in kind though, only in degrees. You could own an apartment and make rules that your tenant cannot bring in “outsiders”. You could own huge plots of land, partition it, and even sell them on the condition that they cannot bring in “outsiders.” It’s effectively the same.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. To use force against immigrants or drug dealers ON THE GROUNDS that they have immigrated or dealt drugs is a violate of the NAP as there is nothing INHERINTLY aggressive with immigration QUA immigration or drug-dealing QUA drug-dealing. Sure, an immigrant might decide to trespass, but the fact that he is an immigrant is irrelevant to why he should be arrested. Non-immigrants trespass too. Similarly, a drug-dealer might decide to commit fraud, but this charge is separate from the act of dealing drugs, for violating the NAP is not a necessary aspect of the profession. Businessmen in other industries commit fraud too.

I thought I had made this point clear, but perhaps I have done a poor job of explaining it. I hope I have made it more clear this time.

Obviously, my response was little more than explaining how you haven’t been clear, I’m glad its cleared up now.

A prostitute doesn’t sell herself because she wants to bring down the state, she does so for money, for survival. She is ultimately at the same level as a coach roach living in someones house.

Right, but the libertarian recognizes these people as a hero in the sense of the phrase “everyday heros”. Maybe Block couldn’t think of a better word and wanted to be provocative. I can’t think of a better term offhand than something boring like, “oppressed migrant worker”. Anyhow, I don’t feel like arguing this one anymore =)

“Positively accepted” is extremely broad though, I thought you meant that the society found his actions (i.e. fishing for himself) to be good, like a model citizen.

It is broad if we try to assign a single preference across society, rather than stay focused on individuals. Some people like rough sex with strangers, and others call it rape. Still, the person on the receiving end of autistic exchange clearly either likes, dislikes, or is indifferent to the other’s action (if genuine indifference is even truly possible).

I think you can make a better definition. And Mises’ view makes hard to reconcile with altruism.

Maybe I can make a better technical definition, but these ideas just popped into my head. I don’t see why my definition doesn’t work with Mises on autistic exchange though.

I’m not sure how the giver’s speculation makes him any less than an egoist. However, if you like this pet definition of altruism, fantastic. It doesn’t contradict my own definition of hero. Remind me next time, and I’ll rearrange it to suit you better.

If we define “altruism” as zero-sided exchange because there is always at least psychic profit on the part of the giver-egoist, it makes the word meaningless since it has no practical application in our world. Altruism, to me, means doing good for others without either a claim of obligation held by the gift-receiver or an expectation of mutuality on the part of the gift-giver.

I see the point in your definition of hero, but we’re left with just an arbitrary consensus on what is “noble”. “Hero” and “noble” are of lesser importance to me, and trying to define them seems to require a secondary factor, like the extremity or grandioseness versus the mundaneness and everydayness of the action.

I’m interested in the “goodness” or “badness”, in the moral-legal sense, of certain categories of action. I think the same type of motive is behind Block calling these people heros. I’ve been studying the phenomenological philosophy of social acts and states of affairs (Sachverhalt) by people like Edmund Husserl and Adolf Reinach, then trying to incorporate this philosophy with Mises’ praxeology and Hoppe’s argumentation ethics. Mises failed to develop a working theory of justice, and I think that AE needs both more underlying philosophy, since “argumentation” contains multiple social acts which “act in different ways” (to terribly oversimplify it), and extrapolation, through concepts like estoppel. Anyhow, I can’t get into all that here/now but this discussion was helpful, thanks.

Right, but the libertarian recognizes these people as a hero in the sense of the phrase “everyday heros”. Maybe Block couldn’t think of a better word and wanted to be provocative. I can’t think of a better term offhand than something boring like, “oppressed migrant worker”. Anyhow, I don’t feel like arguing this one anymore =)

That is the sense we should avoid, oxymorons like “everyday heroes” infuriate me. How about black marketeers?

It is broad if we try to assign a single preference across society, rather than stay focused on individuals. Some people like rough sex with strangers, and others call it rape. Still, the person on the receiving end of autistic exchange clearly either likes, dislikes, or is indifferent to the other’s action (if genuine indifference is even truly possible).

Well no, you are still saying there is someone on the receiving end, my point was that it could still be interpreted as if there wasn’t (directly, that is)

Maybe I can make a better technical definition, but these ideas just popped into my head. I don’t see why my definition doesn’t work with Mises on autistic exchange though.

It works with Mises sure, however Mises’ view (and your own) don’t really work with the common meaning of altruism.

If we define “altruism” as zero-sided exchange because there is always at least psychic profit on the part of the giver-egoist, it makes the word meaningless since it has no practical application in our world. Altruism, to me, means doing good for others without either a claim of obligation held by the gift-receiver or an expectation of mutuality on the part of the gift-giver.

Its still useful as a philosophical and idealized concept. Like “absolute” truth and whatnot. However, your view of altruism, seems perfectly usable, I can easily adjust any prior wordings to fit it.

I see the point in your definition of hero, but we’re left with just an arbitrary consensus on what is “noble”. “Hero” and “noble” are of lesser importance to me, and trying to define them seems to require a secondary factor, like the extremity or grandioseness versus the mundaneness and everydayness of the action.

Sure, arbitrary consensus is a deciding factor on most words. Its not as if there is an objective “hero” out there to be discovered.

I’m interested in the “goodness” or “badness”, in the moral-legal sense, of certain categories of action. I think the same type of motive is behind Block calling these people heros. I’ve been studying the phenomenological philosophy of social acts (Sachverhalt) by people like Edmund Husserl and Adolf Reinach, then trying to incorporate this philosophy with Mises’ praxeology and Hoppe’s argumentation ethics. Mises failed to develop a working theory of justice, and I think that AE needs both more underlying philosophy, since “argumentation” contains multiple social acts which “act in different ways” (to terribly oversimplify it), and extrapolation, through concepts like estoppel. Anyhow, I can’t get into all that here/now but this discussion was helpful, thanks.

You are definitely correct, Block could have simply called them “good” people or defended them by saying they definitely aren’t “bad” people. The application of “hero” just sounds too far (as it makes it meaningless overall). A more rigorous application of, and distinction between terms would be better.

So who took the heroes thread offtopic to argue about illegal immigrants?

So who took the heroes thread offtopic to argue about illegal immigrants?

I suppose I did. Anyhow… William Lloyd Garrison, back on track.

I would say Gandhi. Examine his tactics and you’ll realize that by not acknowledging the British’s monopoly on violence, he forced them to not use the monopoly at all. And then he won. Poeple mischaracterize Gandhi, Lets not forget he was a self described anarchist. I hate it that he has been Hijacked by the greens and the reds.

If one has no affection for a person or a system, one should feel free to give the fullest expression to his disaffection so long as he does not contemplate, promote, or incite violence.

~ M.K Gandhi.

How about Jesus Christ? Granted he was the Son of God, but he also typified the “absence of rule”.

One last thing, then I will let you guys continue the idol worship.

That is the sense we should avoid, oxymorons like “everyday heroes” infuriate me. How about black marketeers?

I don’t think “everyday hero” is an oxymoron though. At first I thought Block’s usage was somewhat contrived, and lots of dictionaries don’t list this, but it seems it is an accepted way of using it. From Wiktionary:

Noun



Singular
hero



Plural
heroes

hero (plural heroes)

  1. A real or mythical person of great bravery who carries out extraordinary deeds.
  2. A role model.
  3. The main protagonist in a work of fiction.
  4. A champion.
  5. An unwilling sufferer of an act of terrorism, terminal disease, or other tragedy.
  6. A large sandwich made from meats and cheeses; a hero sandwich
  7. Someone who possesses supernatural powers (in fiction) such as Superman.

Then consider from page xi of Rothbard’s introduction to Block’s book.

Block’s collection of scapegoats go about their business nevertheless; heroically proceeding to confer their economic services in the teeth of universal scorn and outlawry. They are heroes indeed, made so by their unjust treatment at the hands of society and of the state apparatus.

Heroes yes, but not necessarily saints. When the author confers the moral stature of hero on the scab, the usurer, the pimp, and so on, he does not mean to imply that these activities are intrinsically more moral than any other. In a free market, and in a society that treats the usurer, slumlord, and sweat shop employer in precisely the same just way as it treats other occupations, they would no longer be heroes, and they would certainly be no more moral than anyone else. Their heroic status, for Professor Block, is solely a function of the unjust restrictions that other men have been placing upon them. It is the happy paradox of this book that if its implicit advice is followed, and the men and women described in these pages are no longer treated to scorn and legal coercion, then and only then will they no longer be heroes. If you don’t like the idea of a usurer or a slumlord being a hero, then the only way to deprive him of this stature is to remove the shackles that misguided people have placed upon him.

The illegal immigrant was proposed as a heroic exemplar of libertarian ideals. His level of heroism may be in doubt but he is an exemplar, albeit not willful, libertarian. I found this idea interesting and it led to this question:

The illegal community is unique because of 1) it’s huge population 2) it’s substantial contribution to the economy and 3) it’s seeming success and growth. 3) it’s inaccessibility to the IRS. Why wouldn’t the State’s response to such a body of tax evaders be that of the prototypical manner of the whiskey rebellion. I think the obvious answer is the interests of big agri-business. So, accepting that the bedfellows of big-government and big-business desire this labor-class community, it raises another question:

Why not stay with the status-quo? Government makes token efforts at enforcing borders and maintains employment laws yet doesn’t enforce them. In this way the illegal remains a citizen of lesser rights, exploitable as a labor class. Why, against the will of the people, does Government adamantly want to create this Z-visa legislation?

I think it is because the illegal immigrant is creating an alternative society outside the rule of law, at least in an economic sense. This society isn’t content to pick crops, they are making in-roads into many other industries. They are unwittingly creating an alternative libertarian society which if unchecked will grow and draw in other, legal, citizens. The state can not tolerate this, but they also can not deport agri-business’ labor. Their answer is the Z-visa.

test, not sure why my post didn’t go through

Easily the Kowloon walled city. A densely populated anarchist microcosm of 30000 inhabitants in hong kong, of hard working people in their free market wonder world.