How physics is validating the (marxist) labour Theory of Value

How physics is validating the labour Theory of Value

Found this interesting tidbit. Let’s discuss.

By Paul Cockshott

When I was a student my economics professor told us that whilst the labour theory of value had been an important historical stage in the development of economics, it was now known to be fatally flawed. 20th century economists such as Sraffa and Samuelson had shown that it was unnecessary to accord labour any special place in our understanding of prices. Instead, the structure of prices could be perfectly well understood as the result of the monetary costs faced by firms and the behaviour of profit maximising entrepreneurs. If there was in reality no such thing as labour value, it followed that Marx’s theory of exploitation was an invalid incursion of moral prejudices into the ‘positive science’ of economics.

The professor who taught us this, Ian Steedman, was actually quite left wing, an active member of the Communist Party.

This is just an anecdote, but fact that even a prominent communist intellectual believed that the central component of Marx’s theory was scientifically worthless is significant. In retrospect it gave an indication of how poorly prepared the intellectuals of the communist movement were to be, when faced with the very intense ideological attacks on socialism which unfolded in the 1980s and 1990s.

But 25 years ago help came from an unexpected source. Two mathematicians Moshe Machover and Emanuel Farjoun, wrote a book called the Laws of Chaos. Their book gave a radically new way of looking at how capitalism worked as a chaotic and disorganised system. Farjoun and Machover had the the insight to see that physics had already developed theories to describe similar disorganised and chaotic systems.

In a market economy, hundreds of thousands of firms and individuals interact, buying and selling goods and services. This is similar to a gas in which very large numbers of molecules interact, bouncing off one another. Physics speaks of such systems as having a ‘high degree of freedom’, by which it means that the movements of all individual molecules are ‘free’ or random. But despite the individual molecules being free to move, we can still say things about them in the aggregate. We can say what their average speed will be ( their temperature ) and what their likely distributions in space will be.

The branch of physics which studies this is statistical mechanics or thermodynamics. Instead of making deterministic statements, it deals with probabilities and averages, but it still comes up with fundamental laws, the laws of thermodynamics, which have been found to govern the behaviour of our universe.

Now here is the surprise! When they applied the method of statistical mechanics to the capitalist economy, they found that the predictions it made coincided almost exactly with the labour theory of value as set out in volume 1 of Marx’s Kapital. Statistical mechanics showed that the selling prices of goods would vary in proportion to their labour content just as Marx had assumed. Because the market is chaotic, individual prices would not be exactly equal to labour values, but they would cluster very closely around labour values. Whilst in Kapital I the labour theory of value is just taken as an empirically valid rule of thumb. Marx knew it was right, but did not say why. Here at last was a sound physical theory explaining it.

It is the job of science to uncover causal mechanisms. Once it has done this it can make predictions which can be tested. If two competing theories make different predictions about reality, we can by observation determine which theory is right. This is the normal scientific method.

Farjoun and Machover’s theory made certain predictions which went directly against the predictions made by critics of Marx such as Samuelson. In particular their theory predicts that industries with a high labour to capital ratio will be more profitable. Conventional economics predicts that there will be no such systematic difference between the profit rates in different industries. When put to the test it turned out that Farjoun and Machover were right. Industries with a high labour to capital ratio are more profitable. But this is exactly what we should expect if the source of profit was the exploitation of labour rather than capital. Their theory made predictions which not only turned out to be empirically spot on, but at the same time verified Marx’s theory of the exploitation of the worker.

The next big advance was made by the phsyicist Viktor Yakovenko, who showed in his paper ‘the Statistical Mechanics of Money’ that money in a market economy played the same role as energy in physics.

Just as energy is conserved in collisions between molecules, so money is conserved in the acts of buying and selling. So far so obvious!

What was not obvious was what this implies. Yakovenko showed that the laws of thermodynamics then imply that the distribution of money between people will follow the same form as the distribution of energy between molecules in a gas : the so called Gibbs-Boltzmann distribution. This sounds very scientific, but what does it actually mean?

What the Gibbs-Boltzmann distribution of money says is that a few people with end up with a lot of money and a lot of people with end up with very little money. It says that the distribution of money will be very uneven, just as we see in capitalist society. In fact Yakovenko showed that the distribution of wealth in the USA fits the Gibbs-Boltzman distribution pretty closely.
There is a tendancy to think that rich people owe their wealth to intelligence or effort, but physics tells us no. Given a market economy, then the laws of chance mean that a lot of money will end up in the hands of a few people.

In fact when we look at the USA we find that the distribution of wealth is even more uneven that we would expect from the Gibbs-Boltzmann law. If the Gibbs Boltzman law held, there would be millionaires but no billionaires. Why the disparity?

Yakovenkos original equations represented an economy that is rather like what Marx called simple commodity production. It assumed only buying and selling. More recent work by Yakovenko and Wright, has shown that if you modify these equations to allow either the earning of interest on money, or the hiring of wage labour, then the equations predict a polarisation of the population into two groups. The great bulk of the population, the working class and petty bourgeois, follow a Gibbs-Boltzmann income distribution. But there is a second class, those whose income derives from capital, whose wealth with follow a different law, what is called a power-law. Again, look in detail at the distribution of wealth in and you provide exactly the distribution predicted by Yakovenko’s theory. This, says Yakovenko, proves that Marx was right when he said that modern society was comprised of two distinct and opposed classes : capitalists and workers.

So modern physics has shown that not only was Marx right in his basic analysis, but he was right because his conclusions follow from the most basic laws of physics, the laws of thermodynamics.

There is also a less obvious conclusion that we can draw from physics relating to the undesirablity of Market Socialism. We can see from Yakovenko’s work that a market socialist economy would also have a very uneven distribution of money. There too the Gibbs-Boltzmann law would rule. A small number of people or co-operatives would end up with a lot of money, and many such people or co-operatives would end up poverty stricken. From this capitalism would be regenerated. As Lenin wrote : “small production engenders capitalism and the bourgeoisie continuously, daily, hourly, spontaneously, and on a mass scale”.

Also a good read: Farjoun & Machover - Laws of chaos:

http://207.45.187.42/~wright/fm.pdf

All you have to do to disprove any objective theory of value is find two people that disagree on the value of objective theory of value. You just found that.

It made me laugh.

I will start with the assumptions made in the article:

  1. Humans are all the same and under the same stimulations will act in exactly the same manner.

  2. Humans can be given exactly the same stimulations that mimic reality.

  3. The sum of the parts, individual experiments, is equal to the whole.

Neither of 1 or 2 are true. It is silly to think that two individuals much less millions would behave the same in the same situation like particles do. Then you have to also assume that you can break reality down into experiments that can be given to prove humans are the same when humans have wildly varying experiences. Then you have to prove 3 and that is not even true for physics itself. Organization matters especially in a living system.

In my opinion without these assumptions the whole logic applied to economics breaks down.

Ha ha. No. The entropy model of the universe begins by assuming quantum states are random. Even if people went around shaking magic 8 balls to make their decisions, their decisions are still purposeful. Only a truly illiterate economist would look at people walking through the streets as “random gas molecules”.

You can do cardinal math with like, positions… you can’t do it when your parameters are subjective. There is no average level of how much everyone likes ice cream.

Apparently this article is also scientifically illiterate. This explanation will do for laymen but no Ph.d, or even undergrad such as myself, would try to derive apodictic law from entropy.

Go write a program to model the pressue of an ideal gas at constant volume. Allow the particles to be positioned randomly at each timestep. Tell me there is an overall constant pressure. No there’s not. 0 < P < Pmax.

Labor content…? I mean, we would expect that all goods that use unskilled labor would cost about the same in labor hours… If it takes a highschool dropout 1 hour to make a sandwich, but 2 hours to make a steak, ceteris parabis the steak will probably cost twice as much. We can make this prediction by assuming that labor is homogenous.

But its heterogenous. And is not even the primary input in many goods. See diamonds…

I don’t believe that marx secretly knew about entropy. There doesn’t even appear to be a link between the LTV and entropy. Entropy = random zomg so maybe the data doesn’t fit but we fit the data and its a pretty good fit!

Really? Labor is homogenous AND the only relevant price input, therefore… profits? Seriously marxist economists should be able to outcompete the market. Maybe their theory is just lousy.

Depends on … the risks… and being at equilibrium… AND no government interference. Please don’t use the status quo as evidence against free markets. You wouldn’t like it if I used ancient greece as an indictment against marxism would you?

So if you started a business with 1000 people knitting clothes by hand, you would have a really successful business? Why even invent the loom!

But subjective value is not. People have preferences, they act on them… and you have a different situation before the exchange than after.

Actually that depends what the exponential parameter is. You can have a very fat distribution of the curve.

It also assumes that any gas particle can be anywhere on the x axis at any time. So a gas molecule could have super high energy one second and very low energy the next. So the prediction from this would be that we’re all fabulously wealthy 1 day of the year and poor the rest of the time.

Or like, a normal curve shows this. Or an exponential decline curve shows this…

:open_mouth: You can fit an EQUATION to DATA? Look I can model the thermodynamics of nitrogen down to 3 significant figures. But my parameters won’t have any physical meaning because I just choose them to fit the data. I bet I can get a better r-squared than Yakovenko by adding a “+c” to the equation to account for any extra “evil” in a capitalist society.

Did you ever consider that only a few people are intelligent? Or that there might be MORE THAN ONE INPUT for once?

Actually there would be quadrillionaires under the GB law. The tail kind of goes off to infinity :slight_smile:

Dude the theory of entropy has been around for 200 years. This “modern physics” meme is just a way for you to try and lend credibility to this insane theory.

Because the distribution of money under socialism/communism would be random? Not even I think this.

Seriously. Are marxists all a bunch of non-natural-science non-engineering bachelor degrees? Please respond to this post. Currently you are using the mises.org boards as kind of a personal blog. Stick with a thread. Participate intelligently in the discussion. Otherwise you’re just trolling and wasting everyone’s time.

  1. I seem to remember that it didn’t take statistical mechanics to realize that if you make your money by ripping people off, then the more people you rip off, the more money you make. Thus the more workers you have, the more profitable you will be. People grasped this over a hundred years ago.

Further, I remember that people looked into this and found out that it’s NOT true. The profits are not proportional to the number of workers. In other words, there is an error of fact here.

  1. I detect a flaw in the reasoning as well.

A. If we assume the laws of statistical mechanics are true in the economic universe, then the economic universe will behave as if the labor theory of value were true.

B. Therefore, the labor theory of value is true.

That’s like saying:

A. If we assume the moon is made of green cheese, then it will rot and smell something awful

B. Therefore, the moon will rot and smell something awful.

  1. Of course, the assumption that the economic universe is like the atomic universe is a big mistake, as pointed out very often on this site. As an example: If we assume people in cars drive by the laws of statistical mechanics, then they will wind up evenly [or at least randomly] distributed along the face of the globe. And yet, on a day when there is a football game, there seems to be a big clustering of cars near the stadium. And on days when the stadium is closed, the cluster of cars disappears. Why is that?

  2. I’m not sure I get this bit of reasoning either:

A. The distribution of wealth in the USA follows a Gibbs Boltzman distribution pretty closely.

B. Therefore, modern society is composed of two distinct and opposed classes.

So we may also say that

A. The distribution of molecules in a gas follows the Gibbs Boltzman distribution very closely.

b. Therefore molecules in a gas are composed of two distinct and opposing classes.

“No, of course not. Only when there’s hiring of wage labor.”

“Oh.”

  1. This one is a real whopper: “So modern physics has shown that not only was Marx right in his basic analysis, but he was right because his conclusions follow from the most basic laws of physics, the laws of thermodynamics.”

The laws of thermodynamics assume the molecules do not have free will. The laws do not apply to humans. I mean, really.

The exploitation theory was destroyed by introducing a better understanding of what interest is, thanks Bohm Bawerk. It’s demise had nothing to do with the destruction of the LTV, which also occured for other reasons. Mostly attributed to placing basic common sense and logic against LTV, at which time the LTV crumbles terribly.

Rob do you have a serious critique of Subjective Theory, and marginal value theory? I’ve not had one person explain LTV to me that didn’t sound like a joke.

No one can explain to me why it takes 8-16 hours for me to produce a foot of poo in my toilet, yet it’s worth essentially nothing. Sorry for the vulgarity but it’s a hilarious point to make. According to your LTV there should be some objective value assigned to my poo.

I was reading through on the wikipedia page… Basically the LTV states that GIVEN a laborer is being employed to some end by a capitalist, the final price of that good is dependent only on the labor that went into it. So this formulation sneaks in a sort of market filter on “useless” labor, such as bowl movements.

What it also does is demonstrate that labor cannot have any known value outside of capitalism, since anyone outside of a capitalist’s control no longer has the aforementioned filter. Also that the “labor” of capitalists themselves (in managing capital) is also of zero value because it does not show up in the price of goods. Oh wait it does its called “surplus”.

Indeed. Goldman Sachs is barely profitable due to its abysmal labor/capital ratio. Perhaps Farjoun and Machover should advise GS laborers to increase their labor by doing push-ups on the trading floor.

Z.

I thought it was called overhead and/or interest…?

Sieben, I saw the same thing. That’s an interesting paradox you pointed out. One other thing though. My question is, what determines the actual value, not the price, but value of goods. If it’s labor then what, about labor, explains why I like the color blue more than pink?

Right so then if labor != price, what is it? Well its labor. Its this metaphysical thing floating around attached to the good. Some marxists on the wiki article think that somethings labor content is a sort of magnent around which prices gravitate. I don’t think they have any reason to believe this… nothing could falsify such a vague claim anyway.

You spend your labor potential on blue things. i.e. you like blue things. LTV or something associated with it in Marxism probably assumes you have psychological preferences and therefore, demand creates value psychologically. So you act on the demand by working towards producing your own blue thing. Or some other bull.

I doubt they think about it this way but, if I understand the LTV’ers correctly, prices of goods should always be just slightly higher than the cost of employing someone to make it. Therefore prices cannot fall unless wages fall as well. Easily falsifiable and is dead wrong.

The labour theory of value is like a theory of gravity that says, “If you hold an apple and let go it falls to the ground.” Wait. Nevermind. That makes more sense than LTV.

What about things with value that don’t require any labor? Land (natural resources in their natural state) is valued differently by different people. Land does not require labor for its production. Doesn’t the LTV imply that land should have zero value?

“The Labor theory of value arises from the fact that all value inherited in commodities stems from labor, as opposed to capital. i.e. if one were left to his whims in the wilderness with only his labor to live by, he would be able to forge tools to create capital with, and thus and endless supply of wealth. If this man were a capitalist on the other hand, and tried to survive without working, he would be dead in a matter of days. Because capital alone is not enough to create wealth, you can see that labor alone IS enough to create wealth.”

I was just searchin around and found that. Idk the validity, or what it means in genreal tho.

I just realized that some Marxist think the LTV only applies to commodities. This would mean that my land example doesn’t work, but it also means that the subjectivist theory is more general than the LTV.

Crank science. We can treat molecules as moving “randomly” simply because we have no reason to believe they move any other wise. But in the case of human beings, we know they do not act randomly. In fact, quite the opposite. Humans are notoriously bad at acting randomly, even when they try*. So, the assumptions of statistical mechanics simply do not apply. And Yankovenko’s analogy between money and physics is pure voodoo… energy in the economy is the equivalent of energy in physics. As Eric Beinhoffer explains in his book, The Origin of Wealth, the human economy - like the entire biosphere - is a gigantic heat engine… it takes low entropy heat energy and converts it into work and high-entropy waste energy. The rules of thermodynamics directly apply to the economy, there is no need to convert them into voodoo monetary theory.

Clayton -

*You can write a very simple computer program that uses a Markov chain to guess a number you have in your mind between some min and max, and after a few learning trials, it will be right with high probability.