How should Austrians Invest?

I have a small amount of excess cash that I want to invest. Assuming an Austrian worldview with a counter-economic desire, how should I invest?

I have been thinking about commodities, but I am afraid they will fall off in a new recession. And any earnings are taxed.

I also found an ETF that shorts currencies with high interest rates and goes long on currencies with low interest rates. So my investment would help keep the dollar “honest” by reducing demand for it when interest rates drop (if my guess is right). PowerShares DB G10 Currency Harvest Fund (DBV)

I have also been thinking about starting an underground boot business (no taxes). I don’t yet know how to make boots, but I sell them everyday. I feel pretty confident I could learn on the internet. They are really very simple. Just materials and stitching for the most basic designs.

If deflation comes as a result of a double dip, cash might perform best.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I have to assume by “fall off” you mean their prices would drop significantly. I’m not sure why you think commodities would do such a thing in a recession. Especially in this current economy (i.e. with the current state of food stock, etc.) Why should food and natural resources get cheaper?

I’m also curious why you would list “earnings [being] taxed” as a strike against commodities.

a) it depends on the vehicle you use

b) do you know of some other investment return (other than government bonds) that aren’t subject to taxation of some kind? If so, I’d love to hear about it. (And no, your ETF isn’t it.)

Finally, I’m curious as to why you think there is a drop in the money supply coming anytime in the future. I’m really interested to hear a single sign that points to that (let alone enough to counter all the signs that point to the opposite).

On that note, you’ll find a collection of related links here:

Practical Applications of Austrian Economics (investing)

Money supply is only half of the equation. The other half is the productivity of the economy. A renewed recession would cause lower prices unless a correspondingly large injection of money takes place. I think the FED would unwilling to expand enough to keep the dollar from deflating.

The market price of commodities did drop relative to the dollar during the financial crisis in late 2008, correct?

What in the world ever gave you that idea? QE1? QE2? QE3? The Chairman of the Board of Governors making assurances that interest rates will be kept at zero well into the near future?

Peter Schiff speaks on this in a lecture from 2009 here. It’ll jump to the right spot, but I highly recommend the whole lecture.

Austrians should invest the only way that anyone should invest: Buy low and sell high!

My advice for beginning investors is to start small and trade what you know. Understand whether you’re peddling or speculating.

A peddler is as a “middleman” who buys things from people who need them less and sells them to people who need them more but neither of which had the time/information/inclination to make the transaction happen. You’re an enabler and you’re getting existing goods from those who need them less to those who need them more and earning a profit for yourself on the way.

Speculating is like peddling over time. You’re buying things now while people demand them less and selling them later when people demand them more (or buying while supply is high and selling when supply is low). This is much more difficult to get right than peddling which is why I recommend that you start by peddling then work your way up to speculating.

Start small and local. Buy/sell on CL. Swap what you have, leverage what you know, learn what will help you make more money buying/selling. If your long-term interest is in commodity trading or stock/commodity speculation, this will be good practice.

The key thing that most new investors miss is: you need to know, from the outset, why you’re going to make a profit. If you don’t know why you’re going to make a profit, then you don’t know what you’re doing and you might as well take a trip to Vegas because you’ll get more bang for your buck there than frittering it away in the NYSE. Buying stocks because someone said so or because the “technicals” look good or because blah blah blah are all bad reasons. Unless you have insider information or conduct corporate espionage or your Dad is a Senator, you probably shouldn’t be buying/selling stocks. This is true of the so-called “professionals” too! Ask yourself why the managed funds can’t beat the S&P?? They’re pros and even they can’t beat the S&P. Ya think that might mean the board members of S&P know something that fund managers - let alone you and me - don’t?

Another investing strategy (less recommended for the US but you might move somewhere where there’s good growth potential and apply this) is dividend-investing, which is closely related to investing in land, as far as the economics of it is concerned. Land speculation might seem to be just speculation and not dividend-investing but it can certainly be dividend-investing. The way to see this is to think about how the public utilities (including roads, powerlines, etc.) act as subsidies of land-owners. So you see that the Buffett investing strategy is really not about just buying “value” but buying heavily subsidized infrastructure, such as railroads. These businesses are not “free market” and will never have dotcom-style growth but they’ll never* go away, either. That is, they’re “plugged-in” to the tax-subsidized infrastructure grid so they’re kind of like an ATM. The government collects the money in taxes, builds roads, powerlines, and so on, and the land and other industrial interests that are connected to this grid are automatically subsidized. By buying into this, you are basically buying shares in government tax revenue. But you have to buy smart and the US is not the place to buy right now - unless you’re Buffett.

Basically all corporations benefit from the tax-subsidized infrastructure but some more so than others. One of the “tricks” I’ve learned from the 2008 collapse is that buying businesses that are synonymous with national identity in countries with reckless monetary policy is a risky but potentially very high-side investment strategy. Governments never want to admit they’ve gone bankrupt. And if the largest private bank in your country with a name like “Bank of America” is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, you’re likely going to bail it out rather than have newspapers around the world blaring “America Gone Bankrupt!” when Bank of America goes bankrupt. See how this works? It really is that juvenile. But learning how to peer behind the mask of “serious” investing and see the schemes and games being played by the political types is crucial to being able to survive and thrive in the market. It’s not enough to just be a good businessman, you have to outwit the predators unless you want to become prey. Just don’t descend into predation yourself and become a Madoff.

Clayton -

Oh and don’t try to make boots. It may look simple but I can assure you, it is not. If you’re going to start a business, do it right or don’t bother. If you want to do under-the-table trading, I recommend Craigslist (CL). Buy/sell whatever you know. I highly recommend this as you can earn double your money just by trading cash and avoiding taxes… but be smart, buy a real safe and don’t deposit the cash in the bank! So, it’s kind of like getting a full tax-break from the government while you learn how to run a real business.

Clayton -

I’m glad you use proper terminology and at least identify “buy low, sell high” as speculation. As I spoke of here, depending on whom you ask, it’s different from “investing”, but yes, the practices are typically conflated.

You have to move outside of the US to invest in good dividend yields? That’s news to me. And my portfolio.

That’s why I cited Buffett. But Jim Rogers’s strategy is predicated on a long-term economic demise of the US/Europe and I think he’s right. But I’m sure you have more insight on this topic because I don’t personally do any dividend-investing.

Clayton -

What sort of time frame are you investing for? Trading, 1 year, 10 years, 30 years? According to Schiff in his newest book, if it is under 2 years you shouldn’t even bother, just save.

Exactly, they are already at zero. They can hardly go any lower. The FED is running out of ammo. Without demand for loans, they can’t get enough money into the system to keep prices up (in the event of a recession). And I think a recession is coming.

There also won’t be another massive stimulus as an outlet for money. There is no political will for it. If there is a recession, I am betting on deflation (like the market naturally demands). Only then can a real recovery take place.

BTW, QE3 hasn’t happened yet.

My investment timeline is indeterminate. Longer than 2 years though.

“Exactly, they are already at zero. They can hardly go any lower. The FED is running out of ammo. Without demand for loans, they can’t get enough money into the system to keep prices up (in the event of a recession). And I think a recession is coming.”

Don’t underestimate the FED’s ability to get money into the system. After all, Bush literally mailed $600 checks to all of us. Maybe the FED will just start purchasing equities outright…who knows.

“There also won’t be another massive stimulus as an outlet for money. There is no political will for it. If there is a recession, I am betting on deflation (like the market naturally demands). Only then can a real recovery take place.”

If you are in the deflation camp then I would think you would be invested in bonds or treasuries.

Austrians should invest the only way that anyone should invest: Buy low and sell high!

correct, correct, correct

My only point was that you absolutely can invest in good dividend yields without having to move to a foreign country…or be Warren Buffett.

I have no idea what you’re talking about, and evidently neither do you. First of all, it’s the “Fed”. It’s a abbreviation, not an acronym. Second, I don’t know what you mean “running out of ammo.” The money is created by adding zeros in a computer. Trust me. There is no possible way the Federal Reserve will ever run out of space to put zeros in a computer. I’ll be you all the money they create, that they will never run out of space.

Third, what in the world makes you think there is a lack of demand for loans? The US is running a $1.3 Trillion deficit this year alone. Again I have no idea where you’re getting this.

You’re right about this, but your assessment of the situation is quite misinformed. I recommend The Real Crash (purchase here).

So you’re saying there is the political will to actually do the right thing, and not print the money to buy the bonds, and bailout the banks, and basically do everything practically every government has done in the past in this situation (including our own). You’re saying the politicians in Washington, and the bankers in the Federal Reserve System just “don’t have the will” to do what is in their best interest, and are essentially compelled to do the right thing.

I say again, what the hell ever gave you that idea?

Right. Because the Fed doesn’t buy assets unless it announces it and gives it a fancy name first.

Well hey that’s easy then! Current yield on a 5 year T-note is 0.70. Buy away! Wanna go for longer? Go for the 10 year at 1.62. According to your strategy, that’s where you want to be! And it’s not even taxed on a state or municipal level! (But the Feds still take their kickback though…so I guess you still owe me that “tax free” investment you seem to know about. And no cheating by telling me to put it in some kind of shelter or retirement vehicle.)

)

Put simply, a given amount of money is being injected into the economy now. If a recession hits, that money injection must increase or price inflation will slow or turn negative. You seem to think that only an idiot would contemplate this turn of events. Thanks for the perspective. Given your disagreement, what investment strategy do you suggest to answer the original question? Or are you only here to be combative?

What is inflation, how do you measure it?

Well. You basically agree with everyone who was wrong leading up to the meldown of 2008. I agree with people who were right. My outlook is based on the Austrian perspective applied to the real world evidence we have available. I have no idea what yours is based on. You continuously neglect to offer such information. The closest I’ve heard so far is essentially “there is no political will to do precisely what they’ve been doing for years, and what they show no signs of letting up on.” It’s all they’ve been doing for quite some time, it’s all they say they will do into the forseeable future…but dude6935 thinks there’s no political will for that. The politicians and bankers will just all of a sudden do the right thing. For no explainable reason…other than “they just don’t have the will” not to.

Forgive me if I don’t find that assessment very convincing.

No problem!

I gave you plenty of reasources. I’ll even list them again for you.

See here, here, here, here. (And all the links contained therein).

@dude: You seem to think that the trigger of hyper-inflation is rapid expansion of the money-supply. It is not. The trigger for hyper-inflaction is a collapse in the demand for the government’s funny money. When that happens, the central bank prints money like crazy because it is forced to. The Weimar hyper-inflation, the Zimbabwean hyper-inflation, etc. are all examples of this sequence of events.

As long as the demand for USD remains constant, the Fed can keep printing money until the heat death of the Universe. So, what you really want to be asking yourself is: what sorts of events can cause a collapse in demand for USD? QE3 is not a correct answer.

Clayton -

The Internet can only offer you guidance: the best thing is to sit down, document yourself and think hard about what you want to do with your money.

If you want an “insurance policy” against inflation nothing beats gold, physical gold that is. My advice is always to put a side a part of your savings (3-10% according to your needs and tastes) to buy ingots, bullions or coins, whatever you fancy. I am not a believer in silver, especially because supply still amply meets demand (silver is mostly an industrial commodity) and savers in Asia still prefer the yellow metal.

Commodities at the moment are between a rock and a hard place. Record high prices in the past decade have driven up supply (for example Petrobras starting to exploit large offshore oil and natural gas deposits) and demand is starting to become less robust. Unless there’s inflation on a large scale or a sudden and unexpected disaster (including heavy handed speculation) they will fluctuate around present values but won’t experience a sudden drop or rise. There’s the big question mark of the Chinese building bubble of course: it’s ending but exactly how will it end remains to be seen. Buying mining or oil shale company shares may be a good short to medium term investment however, since most of these companies are quite profitable.

As per your underground business idea… I’ll just tell you what my lawyer always tell me: never, never, never speak about some things on the Internet or on the phone. You never know who might be listening.

Clayton, you say a collapse in dollar demand leads to printing money. You also say “Constant” demand means printing money. So either way, the fED prints money. I don’t buy that. There comes a point where the Fed runs out of mechanisms that they are willing to use.

Snipits of two articles I read today:

“With US Treasury yields already near record lows, the likelihood that more QE can generate a substantial increase in lending seems implausible. Meanwhile, Ben Bernanke has explicitly said it would be “very reckless” to seek a pickup in economic activity at the expense of higher inflation, meaning a QE3 program that amounts to little more than a confidence-building exercise is unlikely.”

““Whatever the Fed does, it will be very lame,” Ed Yardeni of Yardeni Research writes. “That’s because the raison d’être of the previous unconventional easing programs was to bring bond yields closer to zero. They are already there. So what exactly would be the point of OT2 or QE3?””

This is the point I have been making. The whole reason for “twist” was because QE was pretty much maxed.

IIRC, in the Weimar situation, the politicians had control over the central bankers. Here in the US, the opposite is true. The Fed wont destroy the system that it profits on by creating hyper-inflation. Only the politicians are short sighted enough for that. (I am paraphrasing an article I read months ago on the subject).

Historical evidence from 2008 supports my position. There was short term price deflation in commodities that was later buoyed by monetary inflation. If we have a recession, there is little question gold will drop.

I think I will do what the banks are doing. Hold insured cash deposits. After a recession hits, I can find somewhere to invest it.

Thanks for the advice Kakugo.

dude,

Clayton did not say that “constant demand means printing money.” What he said was that the FED can print money without seeing hyperinflation as long as demand remains. Once that demand collapses then the only lender of money to the governement will be the FED, which is why it will be forced to print even more.

Is it your position, dude, that the 1.5 trillion dollar deficit is funded solely by private/foreign investors? If not, then you must admit the FED is always printing money, whether they call it QE or not.

I personnally think it is reasonable to hold cash for the very short term, maybe 6 or 8 months, until the European situation plays out. Greece will fall harder, Spain will fall, Italy will fall, and even France will too. All of this has the potential to lead to a strengthening dollar, as the Eurpeans will choose to paper this over with printed Euros. But trying to adequately time the market often proves fruitless.