I’m noting for the record that you’re changing the context of the discussion.
With that said, I’d ask her what she thinks she can do to attain a higher-level position wherever she’s working. For example, if she’s working in fast food, what does she think she can do to get to a manager-level position?
I’m sorry but phrases like “working really really hard” mean next to nothing to me. What one person’s idea of that is can vary wildly from another person’s. So I’m sorry, but no, I won’t “come on” here. To be honest with you, I personally don’t think working 50 hours a week in fast food constitutes “working really really hard”.
I would probably ask her why she puts any trust in any of the politicians.
I can only think of three general approaches to libertarianism:
Morality - If the individual in question supports the Golden Rule or something like it, then logically they must be against government.
Economics - If the individual in question understands economics, they will be able to see how the state hurts the economy in general.
Consequentialism - I see this as more of a combination of the two (with a focus on the consequences, obviously), but maybe others see it differently.
How are you going to convince this poor, single, black mother to become a libertarian? Use any of those approaches. If she rejects the morality aspect, then use the economic. As Dan pointed out, the government seriously ***** with the choices this woman can make. But if she is so busy, I don’t see how you could possibly spend the time necessary in order to teach her enough economics in order to become a libertarian.
She’s better off with the advice these other posters are giving.
“I’d ask her what she thinks she can do to attain a higher-level position wherever she’s working. For example, if she’s working in fast food, what does she think she can do to get to a manager-level position?”
OK. I kind of wonder what you would tell the other employees, since only one person cannot be manager. Also, you said that in your opinion working 50 hours a week at fast food is not “working really really hard”. I wonder what you do consider “working really really hard”. Would she be working really really hard if she was a manager for 50 hours a week at a fast food place?
“I would probably ask her why she puts any trust in any of the politicians.”
She probably “puts her trust in them” to maintain the gov’t assistance that has helped her in the past because they have a track record of maintaining/supporting such programs. Or because the other candidate outright promises to reduce/remove such programs.
By the way, you don’t seem to be satisfied with my answers. So was your point in starting this thread really to see what others would say to her? Or are trying to corral us to a predetermined conclusion?
“Now you’re asking me to talk to more people besides her? Or what? Otherwise, I don’t see your point with this, sorry.”
Yes, the idea of the thread is that there could be more than one person in society who is in roughly her position. I wasn’t trying to ask about literally the one person in the United States who has trouble making ends meet. I was using her as a type. So if your advice to everyone in her position would be to seek managerial work, that seems bound to fail for quite a few (indeed, most) of the people you are advising. Or put another way, if you are talking to only one such person, the probability of it succeeding for a given individual in her position seems very low. I mean the proportion of fast food workers that become managers is far less than half, is it not? Maybe more like 1/5th? So on the 80% chance of the “try to become manager” strategy failing, what advice would you have for her?
BTW, we’ve really gotten off the topic of how to convince her to become a libertarian. Would becoming a manager in your fast food job become easier in a libertarian society?
I see that you have offered other advice of digging ditches instead of seeking a fast food manager position. Presumably she could dig ditches without geting a government license if the society were more libertarian.
“By the way, you don’t seem to be satisfied with my answers. So was your point in starting this thread really to see what others would say to her? Or are trying to corral us to a predetermined conclusion?”
I have to be satisfied with your answers or else I am trying to “corral you to a predetermined conclusion”? Those are the only two options?
… Are you sure you’re not trying to play the “find me a rock” game? Because I’m really starting to feel like you are. I’m not trying to avoid responding to you directly, but before I do, I’d really like you to explain your true intentions with this thread.
“I’m not trying to avoid responding to you directly, but before I do, I’d really like you to explain your true intentions with this thread.”
My intention is to see what some of the people here would say to convince a poor black inner-city single mother to become a libertarian, or if they would write her off as not worth trying to convince. Instead I’m mainly getting replies about how she could better her life, although several people have answered the question.
Point being, some people have an entrenched interest in maintaining the status quo. I think black women are harmed more than they are helped by it, but they won’t necessarily be able to live the way they do now in a libertarian society. It may present more opportunities but also more hardships initially. Demonstrating how the government caused the problems from the outset doesn’t necessarily mean that this individual would be able to break their addiction/reliance on its “freebies”.
There’s a variety of arguments you can use but ultimately the one you should resort to I think is how the state adversely impacts her children in spite of its claims to better their situation.
You made it about race. Not only that, but used a racist stereotype in your hypothetical: “single black mother who lives in an urban center”.
EDIT: Why not use the married middle class black urban doctor/lawyer/accountant with two children that donates thousands of dollars to the Democratic Party every year as your hypothetical?
The point of those replies is that we would point out that it is the state that keeps her the socio-economic status in which she is by giving examples.
You could point out that inflation erodes savings. Then talk about the foreign wars preventing money from being spent at home. Continue into a discussion of the drug war.
I’m starting to suspect that JimmyJazz’s actual point is to demonstrate that such a person is doomed to a lifetime of poverty without substantial government welfare programs.
Suggestions given so far (to help us all keep track of the discussion):
For why we should write off the possibility of her becoming a libertarian:
-“Why would anyone want to convince her to be libertarian?”
-“How would you convince a neo-nazi to become a libertarian?”
-“We have enough trouble convincing middle class white males to become libertarians, and you want us to convince a poor black woman?”
Of possible ways to convince her to become a libertarian:
-Show her videos of starved and poor people in the Soviet Union and Maoist China
-Point out to her that in a libertarian society she could sell lemonade in a park/braid hair/drive taxi without gov’t interference
-Ask her to envision how much wealthier everyone would be if governments didn’t steal it away
-Ask her to envision all the increased job opportunities there would be in a truly free market
-Point out that inflation erodes savings
Of things she could do to improve her lot in life:
-don’t vote
-change her point of view
-get married / move in with a relative
-become fast food manager
-dig ditches
-become an escort
-work in a brothel house
-sell lemonade in a park
-braid hair