Human Action, Morality, & Natural Law (Pt.II of A Problem w/ Free Market?)

Well, most people would maintain that normative ethics are more than just legal concepts. If morality and legality were the same thing, this would imply that a law could never be immoral, which seems pretty absurd.

The laws of economics and praxeology can never be broken; human nature dictates that they will always be followed. Ethical laws, however, (if they exist) can be broken. They are only enforced by a man-made legal code (to the extent that these laws mirror ethical norms) and God, if he exists and cares about our actions. The fact that we have a choice when it comes to ethical law is where the notion of “ought” comes into play: you can disobey ethical law, but you ought not to. The fact that ethical law isn’t binding and determinative as praxeology is, seems to strongly imply that the two are independent concepts. What do you think?

That’s exactly what I was trying to say I totally agree.

That’s the first time I’ve heard that on this thread, haha. Try telling that to Wilderness. He won’t have it.

Gratefully, there are plenty of mods in this thread to split the off-topic threads. :stuck_out_tongue:

The ethical nihilists are prominent where I least expected them. They contridict themselves with each consecutive post. Economics is value free yes, but man is not and he makes a value judgement with each action he takes. Those judgements are directed by his own ethical code of conduct.

Such is the praxleological nature of man, and is a reality no one here can reject, only ignore.

filc, nobody here has claimed otherwise.

Nobody here has taken issue with the notion of an individual, personal morality. What is incoherent is (a) the notion of a single set of moral values for the species “man” (a notion that flies in the face of methodological individualism) and (b) the notion that judgments of value, which are not propositions, can be judged as “true” or “false”, or “inferred”, when only propositions are verifiable, falsifiable, or capable of being derived from other propositions.

@, Fil, But not every man/woman has the same ethical code of conduct. They’re values that are subjective like all others right?

So I might value anything (killing, stealing, basket weaving) more than you, who is right and who is wrong?

flic,

Do you think that economics and praxeology imply a certain set of normative ethics?

I agree with what you said Jesse to a point. But you never asked me that question. Again you assume what I would say.

What you can’t break is the natural rights that I was referring to that are axioms. Life, liberty, and private property are axiomatic. You can’t refute them without having to use them while refuting them. Human action can’t be refuted. Yet somebody can walk up to another person and kill them. Could they say they have now refuted the axiom of human action because that single individual no longer acts?

Yes you have Lilburne throughout the whole thread. I pointed this out to you on the previous page. I still don’t see how you, liberte, and Jesse on the one hand say to attack judgments of value can’t be done and then you spent pages of a whole thread doing just that.

It depends on what “moral values” you are referring to. But in the natural rights theory that I’ve been talking about, it is grounded in the axioms. I have been referring to these axioms. You have tried to refute axioms. You can’t. You are trying to philosophically attack everybody’s life, liberty, and private property. filc is right.

There is such a thing as a society Lilburne. And a society to maintain itself comes up with laws. And don’t try to wiggle out of the fact that I can define society as an aggregrate of individuals. The laws may differ from society to society. That’s why I said throughout this thread there will be numerous theories. Yet they all, if based on justice, will be grounded on life, liberty, and private property. What that means is. If a case is brought before the court, then the case will be about a person (life/private property), judgments of value (liberty) the person made that the society doesn’t condone. That is a factual statement.

Could a society have unjust laws? Meaning they are not grounded in these axioms? Sure. A case could be brought before the court and a person is being prosecuted for being a black teapot. Such a person could argue they are not a black teapot. But the court recognizes the prosecutions term that the person is a black teapot. The case can continue to prosecuate the person for boiling water inside of himself. Sure. Courts could do this. But that wouldn’t be just. In that society they might think it is just. And to maintain their society they have a law on black teapots and pull people into court they accuse of being black teapots. But this doesn’t hold any logical sense. A is A. A person is not a black teapot. And the person was brought before the court to stand trial, in other words, the very life, liberty, and private property being the person is in fact standing trial in the court even if the court doesn’t recognize what is.

Yet throughout this thread you have judged upon the life, liberty, and private property of every single individual on this earth. How ironic.

I already answered this question, remember?

I answered: every single person.

Right filc, and so those who profess to know praxeologic do in fact contradict themselves and philosophically attack the value judgments (negative liberty) of others. This is why ethical nihilism is self-refuting. What the concept professes to avoid doesn’t in fact avoid. Ethical nihilism ends up in actuality being a form of absolutism carried out by particular individuals. As this recent discussion has demonstrated ethical nihilists philosophically attack the value judgments of others. Ethical nihilism is not praxeologic.

I like to think I understand both sides of the discussion, and see valid points in both directions. I can’t offer too much here because the debate is between two intellectual heavy weights that likely out knowledge me in this area. (You and Wilderness). Still I see where Wilderness comes from and I do think there are several natural norms that regardless of what you believe to be right and wrong will exist otherwise. Pretending that they don’t exist doesn’t change the fact.

Let’s focus for a second on “Natural Law”. Ignoring ethics for now, let’s use Bloom’s previous post as a wonderful example of where Wilderness’s points really shine.

This is essentially the equivalent of saying: If gravity is natural law, then all the awful things airplanes do are a part of that law. In essence he is correct, but his comment mises the point of what the natural law of Gravity tells us. It is simply making us aware of naturally occurring norms that we must adhere to, whether we like it or not. Moving objective ethics aside, there is a natural norm and natural function to many things. We can only work within these rules. There is a reason why an airplane needs large wings and a traveling speed of 300+mph to take flight, it is due to the law of gravity. Another example would be that solid rock melts and becomes magma between 1300f to 2400f degrees. There are other objective things we can take note about in the world around us, for example we acknowledge universally that rocks exist. I can acknowledge objectively that there are flowers planted outside of my office. These are objective notes we can make about the world around us. So far they are value-free. Additionally praxeology is just as much of a natural law as gravity is. We cannot refute its existence, only choose to pretend to ignore it.

So what we can find is that there are various norms that can be observed objectively from human action and the world around us. Now I understand extremely well that moving the discussion into the realm of morality becomes a nasty equivocation but I haven’t yet convinced myself that this is conclusively fallacious. I also understand full well that a fully comprehensive individual system of ethics comes down to the subjective preferences of each person. But I do think that even amongst different subjective codes of conduct you are likely to find foundational norm. I believe it would be easy to find patterns and trends on things that were universally accepted as true. I take this stance from a utilitarian position specifically. Things like exchange, property, among other economic tenants would be natural occurrences and in one form or another exist in nearly all other subjective forms of ethics. I know those examples couldn’t immediately be proven true, and could easily be proven false when citing some destruction form of ethics. So this brings up the next point.

Before I leave you with the last food for thought let me just say this. I realize I probably hadn’t placed as much thought on this topic as you or Wilderness, but non-the less I haven’t convinced myself yet that there isn’t a little bit of truth in both sides of the argument. Finally consider this point as eloquently stated by Justin Summers. I recently had a verbal discussion with Justin (I hope Justin won’t be upset by me sharing our thoughts) regarding this specific topic. He brought up and interesting thought I hadn’t yet considered.

There are things in life that you can simply deny, and you can deny them based on whatever subjective valuation you attribute it to(Like eating is evil for example), but there are things in life which you cannot defy(Like never eating forever). Another example would be, I think gravity is evil, but I cannot defy gravity. This statement is particularly interesting to me. I wonder if you would considered it. In short there are things in life you can deny(by some valuation) but some of those things cannot be defied.

At any rate I don’t have alot of emotion invested in this topic, but I do get a great deal of pleasure exploring the pro’s and cons of it. I meant no offense directed at you Grayson specifically in my earlier post. <3

Mon. 10/04/26 18:17 EDT
.post #82

[url=Human Action, Morality, & Natural Law (Pt.II of A Problem w/ Free Market?) - #113 by filc]

Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed?

Can you command gravity?

Mon. 10/04/26 18:30 EDT
.post #83

[url=Human Action, Morality, & Natural Law (Pt.II of A Problem w/ Free Market?) - #115 by filc]

In the sense of causing it to change its nature, no.

But in the sense of predicting, utilizing or overcoming its effects to some degree, yes.

It is this latter sense, I believe, that Bacon had in mind when he used the word “command”; he used it metaphorically.

Edit:

To put an libertarian spin on it,

You can’t fight Mother Nature, but you can contract with her.

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Precisely.

Man, it sucks that morality threads always seem to pop up when I’m in the middle of reformulating my thoughts on the matter. So, first off, bear with me, incomplete theories ahead.

Finally consider this point as eloquently stated by Justin Summers. I recently had a verbal discussion with Justin (I hope Justin won’t be upset by me sharing our thoughts) regarding this specific topic. He brought up and interesting thought I hadn’t yet considered.

There are things in life that you can simply deny, and you can deny them based on whatever subjective valuation you attribute it to(Like eating is evil for example), but there are things in life which you cannot defy(Like never eating forever). Another example would be, I think gravity is evil, but I cannot defy gravity. This statement is particularly interesting to me. I wonder if you would considered it. In short there are things in life you can deny(by some valuation) but some of those things cannot be defied.

When I brought up this point with filc, I was referencing O’Neil’s paper, “Ayn Rand and the Is-Ought Problem”, which is very eloquent. More than eloquent, I freely admit that it demolishes Rand’s argument, and I’m indebted to Adam Knott for pointing it out to me. Specifically, the paper explains in clear terms, “[if a moral law] cannot be disobeyed, then the term ‘ought’ seems inappropriate;” otherwise, subjectivity dominates, because moral laws can be completely disregarded at the subjective desire of the actor.

Now, my recent work has been in theorizing about possible objective laws that don’t neatly fall into either of these categories. I find it quite possible that a moral law could exist such that it can be denied, but not defied. Here’s a very rough example:

  1. All humans want X.
  2. The objectively most expedient means to attain X is Y.
  3. Ceteris paribus, no men want less expedient means.
  4. Therefore, all men ought to employ Y toward their attainment of X.

In so reasoning, morality becomes framed in terms of rationality (as Rand would define it, not Mises). To be rational (again, using Rand’s definition) is to choose the course of action that maximizes one’s self-interest. To be moral is to choose the most effective course of action - given one’s knowledge - freely chosen on account of that standard.

To reframe this example in terms of concretes, take food. Food is an objective human necessity. As filc showed, you can certainly deny that you need food, but very quickly your body will prove you otherwise through the sensation of pain. You cannot defy your own anatomy. Given this, all men want to eat, even if on a purely physical and instinctual level. The rational course of action would be the one that most quickly satisfies one’s hunger. The moral course of action would be to realize the aforementioned rational course and freely choose to pursue it. One is still free to not choose as such (and there are certainly nonsensical people who might do so), but one’s nature as a human being will not allow them to deny reality for long.

So, from these, man’s objective needs, it seems like we should be able to deduce an objective ethical code.

Hi Justin,

It seems to me calling what you’re talking about morals or an ethical code is just confusing. What you’re talking about is what Mises, in Liberalism, called “reasonable action”, and its discovery is a matter for economics and the technical arts and sciences. There’s really no need to subsume all forms of what Mises elsewhere called “suitability analysis” into one massive category called “ethics”, especially when most people think of something altogether different when they encounter that word.

It seems to me calling what you’re talking about morals or an ethical code is just confusing. What you’re talking about is what Mises, in Liberalism, called “reasonable action”, and its discovery is a matter for economics and the technical arts and sciences. There’s really no need to subsume all forms of what Mises elsewhere called “suitability analysis” into one massive category called “ethics”, especially when most people think of something altogether different when they encounter that word.

I think the confusion stems, in part, from my incomplete examples. It’s all very much a work-in-progress, but my unabashed hope is that such deduction can be applied far enough as to create an ethical framework within which value judgments from an objective standard are possible. (As a sidenote, I realize that I’m biased, but I’m trying to stay strictly within the realm of logic.)

I believe that Rand had an amazing premise, which is that ethics can be objective and can be derived from the realm of reason. I don’t think the flaws in her argument (such as those presented in O’Neil’s paper) are necessarily insurmountable… I just think that the discourse needs to start again from the very beginning.