I am a non-libertarian and would like to debate individuals in this group

To me, big government means bureaucratic control and supervision. Since I’m not American, I don’t know exaclty what you mean by big government. In my understanding, there is only a difference of degree between big and small.

(maybe too strong to say this)gvmt bureaucrats never serve, but always confiscate. They will provide so-called service but not sufficient and efficient and their action is based on principles of coersion.

If anything, we have the opposite problem, if that makes any sense.

Instead of joining and telling everyone “Hai, I iz not like u, but can i haz debatez?”, you could actually start a real debate. What is the purpose of this thread?

I agree. If you are afraid of getting banned, don’t show up and say, “Hi, I’m not one of you. Please don’t ban me.”

I would never do that if I were to try to join some non-libertarian forum (which I think I will as soon as I find the time).

What about, because individuals can decide on whom they want to talk to and whom they want to allow to use their property (so far this place is the property of the Mises Institute).

I think that are 2 fundamentally good reasons :slight_smile:

And now on with the discussion.

I am not one of you (whover that is) either :-))

For most here, the question is state vs. no state. That is hardly vague.

For other libertarian-leaning people, however, it is about big-government vs. small. While I don’t agree with them, I don’t think there is anything problematically vague about their position, any more than there is in thinking about the merits of big business vs. small or big dogs vs. small. Do you expect every libertarian-leaning person in the world to agree on what exact proportion would make an appropriately sized government, like how Rousseau wanted the government to be the square root of the population?

because…?

To win an argument, you have to make one.

I agree. I prefer just government vs. unjust government.

Now to play the Devil’s Advocate isn’t it a false dilemma since there is a way to reconcile these two contrary qualities -namely in medium government?

theres no sense in which the words ‘big government vs small government’ pose any kind of dilemma to a libertarian, false or otherwise.

poor use of the word dilemma

Or is your position more of a " sometimes coercion is more efficient at getting things done, than holding property rights as inviolable in all circumstances. It is much easier to get important things done through government than through the market process, which takes time that may not seem practical." kinda thing?

Better question: Would you consider yourself a Federalist ( as in the Hamiltonian sense ) or a Republican ( as in the Jeffersonian sense ). When it comes down to it, government is about sovereignty.

Mises and Rand have argued that “no”, it isn’t.