I came here to learn. Will anyone help me?

I came here to learn about libertarianism/anarchy, as I was already leaning towards things such as privitization and social liberties, but wanted to know more. I am going to post my current understanding on two libertarian ideas. I am also going to posit questions I have about each. All I want is for people who are more familiar with the topic to correct my current understandings and answer my questions. I do not want to cause any turmoil, but it is just frustrating when people flame me without helping my understanding at all. Here goes.

Natural Rights

My understanding: Libertarians beleive that there exists universal natural rights for persons. They are life, liberty, and property.

My questions:

  1. How do we know natural rights exist?

  2. If they do exist, how do we know that they are life, liberty, and property?

Non-agression Principle

My understanding: The NAP is an axiom in libertarian thought. It is: Aggression upon another’s natural rights is illegitimate.

My questions:

  1. What do the terms “aggression” and “illegitimate” entail?

  2. Does “implied aggression” (such as saying you own a gun at an airport, but not directly threatening anyone) fit within the NAP?

I just want the facts set straight for me. I hope everyone understands. Thanks in advance.

Good questions. Difficult to answer briefly but I’ll try as I hate to type too much.

Re: Natural Rights

I come at it from the Scriptural perspective that our rights are given by God and are inalienable, that is, we cannot give them away. Scripture gives plenty of examples of life, liberty and property being ordained by God. This is my story and I’m sticking to it.

Re: NAP

aggression entails the act of using force to deprive another of their God given life, liberty or property. I make the exception for self defense and thus do not consider being armed as a statement of implied aggression. Even in an airport. As for legitimacy, who can be trusted to have the wisdom to apply coersion to another for purely altruistic reasons. Those with the power to employ aggression are as corrupt as thier position or must be suspected of being so. Coersion cannot help but become a tool for abuse.

Holy crap, I think I’ve had a revelation about NR.

  1. I am a self-aware, conscious being.

  2. I am the primary user of my body; I ought to own my body. (Property)

  3. I control my body; I ought to have freedom. (Liberty)

All this time I was thinking in terms if what is and not what ought. Natural rights are not something chiseled in a rock somewhere, but something that can benefit whoever discovers them…

Libertarians believe, as Murray Rothbard put it, that all rights are property rights.

Thus, “life” and “liberty” would fall under the category of “property.” I.e. You have a metaphorical right to “life” because your body is your property.

As Ludwig von Mises pointed out, every action is undertaken to substitute a more satisfactory state of affairs for a less satisfactory state of affairs. And, as Henry Hazlitt extrapolated, this implies that the singular, ultimate desired end of all acting humans is the long-run maximization of personal satisfaction.

Ethics is a system of recommendations for action (oughts) that apply to all acting humans. However, oughts merely connect desired ends with the means most appropriate to achieve them. I.e. “If you desire to bake a cake (desired end), you ought to buy some flour (means most appropriate)”

Thus, in order for there to be “oughts” that apply to all acting humans, all acting humans must share one universal desired end in common, which they do: long-run maximization of personal satisfaction.

However, as Hazlitt also pointed out, actors cannot judge all the infinite and unforseeable effects of any given action considered in isolation, and thus cannot know whether any particular action will actually lend itself to a net maximization of long-run personal satisfaction or not. But, we can follow the logic of human action and recognize correct general rules for action.

The first ethical issue one must resolve is, how ought individuals act in regard to selves? A general rule needs to be recognized regarding selves A). because your self is scarce and thus conflict is possible between you and another person over it, and B). because if, as a general rule, you ought not be allowed ultimate jurisdiction over your self (i.e. ownership over your self), then you have no basis to undertake any further action using your self.

As Rothbard pointed out, there are only three possible options. Either:

A). You own your self.
B). Some other person or group of people other than you, owns you.
C). Everyone has an equal share of co-ownership in everyone else.

Option B fails straightaway, simply because it is not a general rule applicable to all acting humans, but is rather a specific rule, arbitrarily applicable in one way to some humans, and in another way to other hunmans.

Option C would necessitate that in order for you to undertake any action with your self, you would have to obtain the consent of all other co-owners of your self. But the action of seeking their consent would itself need their consent. Thus Option C would ethically paralyze all further action. Option C is not a functional ethic.

Only Option A (you are your own property) is a functional ethic. The Principle of Self-Ownership is the most appropriate general rule/ethic (means) to employ to obtain long-run maximization of individual satisfaction (desired end).

If you own your self, you necessarily own your actions. If you own your actions, you necessarily own your labor (the fusing of your active efforts with untapped natural resources). And if you own your labor, you necessarily own the fruit of your labor (the property you come to acquire).

The fact that the system of private property is the most appropriate ethic to employ in regards to scarce resources in this world can be proved by examining all the alternatives. Here, again, there’s only 3 options:

A). The first person to appropriate and use a resource is its rightful owner.
B). One person or group of people owns all resources, and others don’t.
C). All users of a resource (which would mean users past, present, and future) equally co-own all resources.

As before, Option B fails straightaway as it is not actually a general rule.

Option C fails because you would somehow have to get the consent of future users of the resource (late-comers) before you could use any given resource. It would basically ethically paralyze all action with any resource other than your self. Option C is not a functional ethic. It is a grossly inappropriate general rule to employ as a means in the pursuit of the ultimate desired end.

Only Option A (that the first person to appropriate and use a scarce resource becomes its owner) is a functional/appropriate ethic.

If you are the owner of some thing, it may be said that you have a just claim to that thing. A metaphorical concept to describe a “just claim” to something, is a “title.” Using the word “title” simply makes it easier to conceptualize ownership.

If you have an ownership title in something, then you may, of course, dispose of it or transfer it as you will, so long as you do not violate the physical integrity of anyone else’s property. There is certain property, however, that you cannot possibly dispose of or transfer, such as your self or your will. You may pretend to transfer the title to your self to someone else, but in actuality, you necessarily always remain in [both physical and ethical] ultimate jurisdiction (ownership) over it. Thus, for example, libertarians generally see slavery as an illegitimate and ethically unenforceable faux contract.

The Non-Aggression Axiom is basically a nice, neat name to describe the fact that no one may violate (i.e. aggress against) any one else’s property. Person A may not act toward Person B’s property in a physical way in which Person A implicitly presumes a higher authority over Person B’s property than Person B has himself. If you own something, then what happens to that something ought to be subject to your ultimate decision-making, overriding the decision of everyone else concerning that something. If anyone acts in violation of this ethic, they are committing “aggression.” “Illegitimate” merely means that something goes against what is “ethical,” and of course what is “ethical” merely means action that is line with the general rules that are the most appropriate means to employ in pursuit of long-run maximization of personal satisfaction, given the fact that scarcity exists and thus interpersonal conflict is possible.

“Implied aggression” is only wrong if your act of implying the future use of aggression against someone is done so in an attempt to exercise a presumed higher claim over someone else’s property than that someone has over their own property. In this sense, “implied aggression” or “threatening aggression” is really an aggressive act in and of itself.

Hope this helps.

Wow, awesome responses. So right now I’m pretty convinced people should have property, and by extension, life and liberty rights.

However, I have a question. Is it possible for someone to infringe upon other people’s rights just by owning certain types of property? Sort of like “striking fear into their hearts” or something?

One more q:

What would constitute as valid punishment for an aggressive act if others cannot agress on the person?

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Also, I just want to clarify: To what extent is property/liberty/self-defense justified? If a man with a knife is running towards me, could I shoot him before he gets close, or do I have to wait until he makes the first move?

Hi Mingy Jojo,

This is my take on it.

There is a moral code written in our nature. When we take up an unused piece of nature and begin to use it, we instinctively think of it as our property. We take instinctive affront when our person or our property is assaulted by others. We feel instinctive outrage when we see the person or property of others assaulted. And we feel instinctive guilt when, or at least after, we assault the person or property of others. This instinctive moral code is only shoved aside when we enter conditions of extremity, in which circumstances have forced the human community to devolve into a war of all against all. In those cases, we instinctively cast aside our communal moral feelings for the sake of extreme short-term selfishness. We morally allow ourselves “necessary evils”.

The state has deceived the bulk of humanity into believing that society is inherently in perpetual extremity, and that its own acts of murder, plunder, and enslavement are necessary evils. This is a lie. Society does not require for its survival, or even for its flowering, that certain men be above natural morality. Far from it; the murderers, plunderers, enslavers, and liars who comprise the state are simply parasites who cripple society and threaten to destroy it.

Well, someone merely owning something does not infringe on anyone else’s rights, if that someone was the first person to appropriate and use that resource, or if that someone acquired that property through a legitimate, voluntary transaction.

However, if someone’s placing of their property near you in some way constitutes a threat of future violation of the physical integrity of your property, you would be justified in taking defensive action against them.

Return of control over the stolen property, plus compensation for any damages that may have occurred to the property or interest compensation for the loss of the ability to use of that property over the extent of the time it was deprived from you.

Some libertarians, like, Walter Block notably, adhere to a concept called the “two eyes for an eye” ethic, where the aggressor in trespassing against the victim forfeits his own rights to the extent that he violates his victim’s rights. Thus, if a thief steals $5 from a storeowner, the storeowner must get his own property back, but the thief has also forfeited the right to 5 of his own dollars in trespassing against the storeowner, and so the storeowner may take an extra $5 from the thief, meaning the storeowner may take a total of $10 from the thief. Thus, also, if Person A beats up Person B, Person B has the right to beat up Person A to twice the extent. Or, if Person A gouges out Person B’s eye, Person B has the right to gouge out two of Person A’s eyes. I happen to disagree with the “two eyes for an eye” ethic, which leads to some horrific/impossible restitution scenarios: if Person A rapes Person B, does that mean Person B has the right to rape Person A for twice as long? If Person A kills Person B, the most restitution that can come from this scenario is Person A being killed once (thus the two eyes for an eye ethic cannot possibly be fulfilled in this and some other circumstances).

I merely subscribe to the idea that the stolen property be returned plus compensation for damages and lost time.

Property is justified to the extent that it is a scarce resource that you either A). were the first person to appropriate and use, or B). legitimately acquired in a voluntary transaction.

Liberty is justified to the extent that people do not aggress against your property. You have the ethical liberty to breathe, because your lungs are your property and no one else has the right to aggress against the physical integrity of your lungs. But, you do not have the ethical liberty to take another person’s car, because their car is their property.

Self-defense is justified to the extent that you are doing what is necessary to defend your property, but not going above and beyond what is necessary in using physical force/violence against another person. Thus, if someone comes up to you and starts slapping you in the face, you would be justified in using physical force to restrain them or even (in my opinion) slapping them back to deter them from continuining to aggress against you. What is going on in this situation is really an implicit form of attempted theft. They are attempting to exercise a higher claim of ownership over your cheek flesh then you yourself have over your cheek flesh. You may do all you can to restore control over that property of yours which is being aggressed against. And, if serious damage is done to your property, you may even rightfully demand further compensation. But, you do not have the right to whip out a gun and shoot the face-slapper dead, or run outside and steal the face-slapper’s car. Such things are not (except in the most extreme cases) necessary to reassert your claim over your property (your cheeks).

If a man is running toward you wielding a knife, that is an implicit threat of future violence against your property, in this case with the implication that he is going to kill you. You have the right to shoot him, here, because it is necessary to do so to defend your property against certain aggression.

The problem isn’t flame. It’s that you have a lot of questions about every minutiae of liberty. Questions you could probably reason out for yourself, which would give you insight, and add depth to your understanding.

It’s important for you to be able to think critically. Not to think what I think, but to think for yourself, where ever that leads you. In the long run, you will become much smarter, much more capable if you are able to consider and deliberate moral and ethical issues not based on a “If A then B what do I do about C?” scenario, but an understanding of what those morals and ethics mean when translated into action.

Answers are like giving a man a fish. Comprehension is like teaching a man to fish. Strive for comprehension.

I want to add one more thing.

There is a lot of concern for how things would work in a libertarian society, from who will own the roads, to how will we dispose of the post state assets, to whether there is enough gold to establish a commodity money standard.

The point isn’t that libertarian solutions necessarily are more efficient than state solutions (they are), or that the state MUST handle certain functions, functions which cannot be privatized (this is false). The point is that the state is immoral first, and inefficient second. It’s not about whether or not the NAP works. It’s about whether one can make an argument for coercion.

David Friedman holds views much different than my own, or those of other Rothbardian anarcho-capitalists.

Thank you for your comments.

The questions I did reason for myself and posted (social contracts leading to the ‘discovery’ of natural rights, possibility of land-owners becoming monarchs in competition) were met with incredible hostility, and I still have not seen any proper refutations. (As a note, if anyone wants to comment on those, please do so outside of this topic. I want to keep this one tidy.) The reason I am asking these questions, however, is not to “think what others think”, but know what others think. I actually have my own answers for each one of those questions already. I will post them when I feel confident enough to defend them.

Great points, Liberty Student. I often find myself guilty of falling into those two traps you just pointed out. Namely looking for answers from others instead of reasoning them out myself, and trying to think of every aspect of a free society while forgetting that a.) the alternative is entirely immoral and b.) if we could know all the best pragmatic answers that would be a good argument for central planning.

One little thing that jumped out at me as I’m reading For a New Liberty is the three choices that Rothbard gives when talking about ownership

I’ve heard another another option given by the anarcho-syndicalists on youtube, which is some kind of incredibly vaguely defined proportional democracy. Where each person gets a proportional say in your decisions relative to how much their decision affects them. This is of course subject to the same kinds of absurdities as option C but I don’t think it’s entirely accurate to say there’s only three options.

Other than that minor quibble, I’m absolutely loving FANL and would recommend it to the OP if he hasn’t read it.

Liberty and property are derived from the natural right to your life.

We know man has the natural right to his own life because of the nature of man’s existence; he is an acting being. If man ceases to act he dies, and when he dies he ceases to act. Action and life are linked.

Each man controls his own actions. No one can make anyone else act. Everyone man owns his own life because he owns his actions, he owns his own actions by default, no one else can. Your life is what is called an inalienable right, it can’t be given away, its impossible to do so.

You own the “fruits of labor” because you own your life. Stealing from a person does not only dispose them of naturally occuring matter, it steals from them that part of their life that went into making it. What is life if not time? Stealing something that took time to make, is no different in effect than enslaving a person for that same amount of time.

But that natural rights justification has fallen away in favor of homesteading. The natural right to liberty means people are free to act so long as they don’t make someone else worse off, meaning any unused nature is free to be used, as no one else is made worsen off. So property also arises by default.

Got to go. More on this later.

Pointing a gun at someone, even if just out of carelessness, is a threat to the person at the end of the gun. Now, if the person is doing it accidentally, all that is required to rectify the situation is to ask them to move it. If the person is doing it deliberately and refuses to move it, you escalate your attempt to get them to stop.

Does implied aggression mean, threats of violence? How is that not coercion?

If you’re telling someone you own a gun in order to get them to agree to something that’s coercion, how you say it doesn’t matter. Coercion is making someone fearful of initiation of aggression. Obviously, threatening to defend your rights with violence is not illegal.

Especially in an airport. If a terrorist tried to hi-jack a plane you’d be there to take them down.

I dunno what the longer posts in the middle said, but I’d argue that represents a non sequitur; I see nothing necessarily leading from primary user to owner. What does self-aware conscious being mean?

Excellent post Freiheit, bookmarked to return and use it later.

I always get one objaction when debating people. It’s a minor thing, but it makes things very difficult for me.

I always get asked ‘Could it be that no one owns anything?’

I get the gist of how libertarians usually respond to this, but if someone could punch it out in a coherent fashion and post it, it would make my life much easier. ; )

Correct.

Can someone link me to an explanation of this claim? I can see life and positive liberty (freedom of property use) as rights that come from owning property, but negative liberty (freedom of will) appears to be a fundamentally different right to me. I have been referring to liberty as negative liberty. For example:

Aggression is attacking one’s property and coercion is attacking one’s liberty. However, they are often used in conjunction:

I have committed aggression if I cut down someone’s apple tree while they are sleeping. (I have infringed upon property)

I have committed coercion if I threaten violence upon another to change their actions. (I have infringed upon liberty)

I have committed both if I hold someone at gunpoint and take their money. (I have infringed upon property and liberty)

understand it like this,the actions being coerced are physical/material, and so manifest in property, at root this is based on property rights.

i.e. “you are not at libery to keep your arm down, raise your arm or i’ll shoot you”, loosely speaking we talk about infringement of liberty, but philosophically, what is being infringed is the right of the arm-haver over the phsyical use of his arm, so its a question of ‘arm property’.