I don't see why socialism and capitalism are politically incompatible...

At a purely theoretical level, I do see how the ideological ideal of capitalism and the ideological idea of socialism are incompatible.

But on a practical level in the United States, judging from the grassroots socialists and grassroots Libertarians I’ve talked to or read, it’s always struck me that, in terms of actual platforms, (what they’d actually like to see done in the near term), the goals of both groups are about 2/3rds identical or mutually achievable.

Speaking only in terms of political pragmatism, then, I find it highly surprising (and sad) that the two camps have not been able to form a political coalition to achieve the 2/3rds of their goals that are mutual goals.

A perfect, contemporary example is the VAT tax which is currently being discussed in the U.S. Socialists oppose the VAT tax because it’s regressive, and Libertarians oppose the VAT tax because it’s another tax and will hurt the economy. I predict it will happen anyways, and there won’t be much cooperation between socialist (leaning) and libertarian (leaning) groups in opposing it in a unified manner.

In both groups, libertarians and socialists, goals that seem to me to be largely shared by both groups include: cutting the overseas military budget, ending most “corporate welfare,” ending the “drug war,” ending ‘foreign aid’ to repressive governments, forcing the government to respect the privacy rights of citizens, ending most domestic agricultural subsidies, ending U.S. membership in the WTO, IMF and World Bank, repealing the “health insurance mandate” and Federal interference in education like “No Child Left Behind”. Although few make it a main issue, many socialists can be brought around to supporting ending specific regulations which favor big business over smaller businesses and ending the Federal Reserve as well.

It strikes me that the above list constitutes at least half of what the U.S. Federal government does, maybe more.

It is true that socialists and libertarians usually diverge around the issue of social spending: most socialists want more, most libertarians want less.

But so what? What is preventing both groups from making a realpolitik political coalition despite this? Specifically, both groups could agree that their shared platform will consist of fighting against government action (and the taxes involved) that both groups disapprove of. The socialist wing could agree to only support social spending increases that derive from a fraction of a previously eliminated program. Say, for every dollar of taxing/spending eliminated, the coalition will support 80% of the cut going to tax cuts and the other 20% going to increased social spending. Both groups would seem to be getting what they want under such a scenario; lower taxes, a more robust and freer economy, and a stronger social(ist) safety net at the same time.

The main group that would lose out would be the Corporatist elements of society. Indeed, the main beneficiary of grassroots libertarian/socialist ideological conflict seems to me to be Corporatism.

Now, if the shared goals of both groups were at some point largely achieved, I could see the coalition rightfully fracturing. I could also imagine a society where a free-market competition for fulfilling human wants is underpinned with a socialist safety net which guarantees minimal human needs, and this being largely satisfactory to both groups… this is basically what most of the developed world has, although most of the developed world is also afflicted with corporatism.

Still, I’ve seen Green Party activists and Libertarian Party activists unable to cooperate to achieve ballot access, for example, resulting in mutual failure for both groups. I’ve seen a similar thing among the anti-state wings of both groups, such as the absurdity of self described anarchist/socialists decrying libertarian anti-tax activists, or self described libertarians decrying the protests of self-described anarchist-socialists as likely government agents. The desire for ideological purity on both sides seems to be sabotaging the achievement of any goals by either side, even mutual goals.

“The enemy of my enemy is my friend” is a mistranslation. The last word is properly “ally.”

No. Socialists oppose the VAT because it is a flat tax.

Interesting post. I think it nicely illustrates how poisonous politics is to real world action.

I think a person supporting state-socialism (violence) should be neither ally, friend, nor acquaintance. They should be shunned and ridiculed. Not only should we not “join” with them, but we should stop inviting them to our dinner parties, stop dating them, stop hiring them, etc…

I think you’re confusing socialism with some sort of left leaning populism. A socialist isn’t opposed to a VAT because its regressive. For the socialist, all property belongs to the state in the first place. If you already have a 100% income tax, any form of sales tax is redundant. Socialists aren’t opposed to corporate welfare; they’re in favor of all corporations being owned by the state, which is the ultimate form of corporate welfare. I could go on, but the point is a principled libertarian has nothing in common with an actual socialist, and shouldn’t try to cooperate with one.

Both groups would seem to be getting what they want under such a scenario; lower taxes, a more robust and freer economy, and a stronger social(ist) safety net at the same time.

Error: cannot compute. “A more robust and freer economy” is mutually exclusive with “a stronger social(ist) safety net,” and that cuts right to the core of the problem: socialism and libertarianism are mutually exclusive by definition (politics or no). The fact that some ends are desirous to both socialists and libertarians doesn’t necessitate cooperation between the two, because the motivation and other ends are drastically different. Sacrificing your principles is not compromise.

They’re not political systems they’re economic systems.

wrong.

For the socialist, all property belongs to the state in the first place

Please, stop relying on rhetorical definitions of socialism invented by anti-socialists. Only psychopaths believe that.

Also, when you say socialism, are you talking about the state owning the means of production or controlling the paths of distribution or both?

Technically, socialism is where both occur. In this country, we get more of the latter than the former.

“A more robust and freer economy” is mutually exclusive with “a stronger social(ist) safety net,”

Ha ha ha, that’s pretty funny. That’s the problem with speaking in universals. A socialist safety net is incompatible with “a more robust and freer economy” for which groups exactly?

I love hearing about how if welfare payments were eliminated, poverty would disappear, seriously, it’s really really funny.

Please, stop relying on rhetorical definitions of socialism invented by anti-socialists. Only psychopaths believe that.

I love hearing about how if welfare payments were eliminated, poverty would disappear, seriously, it’s really really funny.

I love the irony here…

Also, when you say socialism, are you talking about the state owning the means of production or controlling the paths of distribution or both?

Well, how I define socialism isn’t really that important… I’m only one person. My point is that to actually get anything accomplished in the real world requires cooperation, and to get something big done requires a lot of cooperation.

What I actually see happening in the real world seems a bit to me like if three people were stranded in the desert together who could dig a well if they cooperated, but instead decide not to, because they figure out that one is a Jew, one is a Muslim and one is an atheist, and they can’t stomach the idea of working together with someone who disagrees about paradise.

As to your question, the socialists I’ve talked to have diverging notions as to what socialism means to them, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard one advocating state ownership of factories, believe it or not. The position of “state ownership” wasn’t even all that popular among revolutionary socialists during the 1917 revolution in Russia, although they won’t tell you that in school. Very many revolutionary socialists actually died fighting against state control of everything, read about the Battle of Kronstadt if you don’t believe me. The position of state control of everything is even less popular among socialists today than it was then, if anything…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion

Here’s an example of a specific compromise; there’s currently a bill floating around in the House of Representatives which would eliminate all Federal level taxation for employee owned and operated corporations. I believe Ron Paul is a cosponsor. I’ve also heard of socialists supporting it.

Would anyone here be opposed to this proposed change in Federal policy?

what is the legal definition of an “employee owned and operated corporation?”

Is it just a corporation where a person working there also owns the corporation? Now, I’m not against lowering taxes, I just don’t understand the terms.

A socialist safety net is incompatible with “a more robust and freer economy” for which groups exactly?

For everyone. A free economy is one in which transactions and exchanges are voluntary. A “safety net” necessitates involuntary transactions such as taxes and pulls away labor resources from the private sector. If people want to voluntarily set up private charities, they can, but coercion is by definition mutually exclusive with freedom.

As to your question, the socialists I’ve talked to have diverging notions as to what socialism means to them, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard one advocating state ownership of factories, believe it or not.

Socialists may be opposed to any currently-existing state owning factories, but there’s no way to abolish private property except through force - force which will necessarily be wielded by a select few.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Employee+Ownership+Act+of+1999

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Employee-owned+corporation

no way to abolish private property except through force

maintaining it seems to require force too… that’s why things have locks on them, right?

Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), arguably the most conservative member of Congress, has paired with Bernie Saunders (D-VT), the only Socialist member of Congress, to introduce H.R. 1462, “The Employee Ownership Act of 1999.” The bill, drafted by Rohrabacher, would provide that a company that is at least 50% owned by an employee ownership trust, allows each employee one vote on all corporate issues, and includes 90% of all full-time employees to participate in the trust would not pay any federal income tax. Moreover, employees or other current owners selling their stock back to the company would not pay tax, estates could receive a tax credit for transfers of stock to the trust, and non-trust owners would not pay tax on the first 25% of dividends they receive.

http://www.nceo.org/main/column.php/id/69

[Ron Paul is also a cosponsor]

What seems to me to be lacking is a populist movement demanding things like this…

no way to abolish private property except through force

maintaining it seems to require force too… that’s why things have locks on them, right?

What matters is justification of using force.

Most people who support the recent health care bill would resist being forced to pay for their neighbor’s operation by a man with a gun at their door. When distant government bureaucrats tell them health care is a right, they happily send off their taxes, even clamor for more.

Do you consider yourself a socialist Bejamin? Either way, you are not my ally.

Ron Paul supports lessening taxes in any way. That he happens to support one reduction associated with worker coops, doesn’t make him a pinko.

I’m not saying Ron Paul is a pinko, I’m saying that this is a specific example of how pinkos and ]whatever color libertarians are] can cooperate to achieve a mutually desirable goal.